Serpent Isle history and timeline (Spoilers)

Jets Connor · Post by **Jets Connor** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:48 pm

Hello, all. I've just been playing Serpent Isle, and I'm left uncertain of something - when did everything -happen-??

I get the impression the wars between Order and Chaos happened a long time ago. The Ophidian ruins are, well, ruins, the order automatons are beginning to run out of power, and everyone seems to be dead. Except the automatons and that guy locked up in the Temple of Tolerance. So I have to conclude that the war was a long time ago, and the chaos serpent has been dead for ages. (I also recall something about the Great Earth Serpent being away from the others for a time because of exodus and this being the reason for the war, which rather confirms the long-time-ago thing.

So why have the storms only just begun? It seems as though they've only been going for a few months (not long after Batlin arrived, perhaps - did he do it? How?) judging by characters' dialogue. Or is this something that has just been slowly building up over time, and Batlin/The Avatar have arrived at a breaking point?

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:17 pm

""I get the impression the wars between Order and Chaos happened a long time ago. The Ophidian ruins are, well, ruins, the order automatons are beginning to run out of power, and everyone seems to be dead.""

It occured shortly after Ultima 1. Yes, Shamino's castle is older than the severely decayed Ophidian ruins. While this is a plothole, there is an excuse you could come up with-- that the ruins of Shamino's Castle and the White Dragon King's Castle remain intact because they are haunted/due to supernatural power. While it does not explain the decay of ruins in more temperate areas, one could also claim that the decay of ruins in the Great North is due to harsher elements. Anyone who lives in a continental rather than maritime climate can tell you how much extreme heat and cold damages concrete.

""So why have the storms only just begun? It seems as though they've only been going for a few months (not long after Batlin arrived, perhaps - did he do it? How?) judging by characters' dialogue. Or is this something that has just been slowly building up over time, and Batlin/The Avatar have arrived at a breaking point?""
I'm not sure. My understanding is that it has to do with a prophecized event-- the manifestation of the Banes of Chaos. So if I am correct to that end, it would indeed be something that has been building up since the Order/Chaos war.

"I also recall something about the Great Earth Serpent being away from the others for a time because of exodus and this being the reason for the war, which rather confirms the long-time-ago thing.""
Yes, the war of Order/Chaos took place during Ultima III, because the Great Earth Serpent had been summoned away to and trapped in Sosaria by Exodus.

It is possible that there may be an Ultima timeline somewhere online-- I think I saw one long ago. I don't know if it still exists, but I'm almost certain there used to be one.

Paulon · Post by **Paulon** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:57 am

The Storms began in the Avatar's time after Batlin released the Banes of Chaos from where the followers of Order had imprisoned them.
I'd expect that there had been Storms back then too before they were sealed away, but they might have passed unnoticed in the mess and aftermath caused by the battles between the Order and Chaos Serpents.

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:45 am

Ah, that's right, Batlin destroyed the Banes prison.

Post by **Dominus** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:37 am

the reason why shamino's castle is not in ruis is because he wasn@t a cheap bastard but employed excellent masters to built his castle... As if that were a plothole....

Jets Connor · Post by **Jets Connor** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:03 am

""It occured shortly after Ultima 1. Yes, Shamino's castle is older than the severely decayed Ophidian ruins. While this is a plothole, there is an excuse you could come up with-- that the ruins of Shamino's Castle and the White Dragon King's Castle remain intact because they are haunted/due to supernatural power. While it does not explain the decay of ruins in more temperate areas, one could also claim that the decay of ruins in the Great North is due to harsher elements. Anyone who lives in a continental rather than maritime climate can tell you how much extreme heat and cold damages concrete. ""

I prefer simply to think that the Ophidians were really, really bad builders.

""I'm not sure. My understanding is that it has to do with a prophecized event-- the manifestation of the Banes of Chaos. So if I am correct to that end, it would indeed be something that has been building up since the Order/Chaos war.""

This sort of brings me to another point (although as I write this, I realise there is also a second other point). The banes possessed Cantra, Gwenno and the pirate dude who tries to assassinate you in Fawn (although I can't actually remember anything from the game that suggests he was possessed; I just read it somewhere on the web). I gather the order of events was something like:

1) Batlin freed the Banes.
2) The Banes each went into a human at that time.
3) Batlin ran around trying to kill each of them, so he could the banes into jars for his collection.

I'm - OK, more than two points - I'm not sure how Batlin managed to get the Gwenno bane or the Pirate bane, since Gwenno was killed by the trappers, not Batlin, and the pirate... I'm not even sure if that website was right about the pirate, so I'm going to ignore him, but how did Batlin get the Gwenno bane into his jar? And how come the Banes didn't go around killing almost the entire population of South Serpent Isle -before- Batlin trapped them, if they were running around with magical powers? (You get to see Cantra's magical powers, and a reference is made to Gwenno also.) Did they just get super pissed off when he tried to use them like that?

Finally... how did Batlin even -start- to get the wall of lights open in Spinebreaker using the chaos blackrock serpent (which you use later in Skullcrusher)? It shouldn't fit into the slot. It's facing the wrong direction. Doesn't make sense.

Oh, and did Batlin kidnap people so the Banes would float into them, to use them as sort of temporary soul cages, or did the Banes just float off into some random person forcing Batlin to track them down?

Jets Connor · Post by **Jets Connor** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:05 am

Oh, the Codex of Ultimate Wisdom says the anarchy bane took Angus. *Shrug*

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:29 am

""And how come the Banes didn't go around killing almost the entire population of South Serpent Isle -before- Batlin trapped them, if they were running around with magical powers? Did they just get super pissed off when he tried to use them like that?""

To my understanding, yes. Which is why the banes killed Batlin. In fact I specifically recall someone stating that the soul prisms alone aren't enough to contain the banes-- all it will do is REALLY piss them off, and they'll retaliate against the caster.

Jets Connor · Post by **Jets Connor** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:05 pm

That was Torrissio, I think.

Olarin_lost_his_password · Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:27 am

re: wrong blackrock serpent:

When you have to open the chaos Wall of Lights, Xenka specifically tells you that either of the serpents can be used to open the Wall, although the chaos one "would be the most appropriate".

re: Ophidian ruins vs Shamino's castle:

It is my impression that the Ophidian buildings are in ruin only partly because of how old they are, and more because many of them were destroyed in the war (or damaged enough to fall apart easily later). After all, several of them *have* survived (city where the order Wall of Lights is - what is it, Skullcrusher? - for instance, and the city in Furnace that the gargoyles took up residence in, and many of the temples, and I don't remember what else). It's easy to imagine that the castles of Shamino and the White Dragon King were unimportant to the Ophidians and generally ignored (especially since the Ophidians seemed to prefer living underground (there are some overland ruins, but all the major cities are tucked away in the mountains)), or even specifically avoided due to being haunted, and therefore could have survived the war without incident.

What bugs me more about the timeline is this:

- The Ophidian War occurs just after Exodus steals away the Great Earth Serpent.

- I'm under the impression that Exodus only terrorized Sosaria (Britannia) for a few years or so at most before the Stranger sealed him away.

- Not long after that (a few years? a decade?), Lord British establishes the Virtues, and residents of Moon, Fawn, and Montor get pissed and take off for "New Sosaria", the Serpent Isle (the old Lands of Danger and Despair).

So through all of this, maybe 20-30 years max have passed in Brittania, but the impression I have is that the Ophidian ruins were old by the time the Britannian settlers got there - one assumes at least a century passed in Serpent Isle time since the Ophidian War? So we're led to the presumption that Serpent Isle time passes faster than Britannian time, just as Brittanian time passes faster than Earth time.

But if that's the case, and we know that the Brittanian time interval between Ultima 4 and Ultima 7 must be at least 220 years or so and probably much more (the interval between Ultimas 6 and 7 alone is specifically given in-game as 200 years), then thousands of years would have passed from when Brittanians first settled the Serpent Isle to when Batlin arrives. This is a bit excessive; I seem to recall being under the impression that only 5 or 6 generations, roughly, have passed since the Serpent Isle was settled. (I think there might be dialogue by someone in the Sleeping Bull or Blue Boar that suggests this, can't recall for sure offhand.) Mythran, in fact, is still alive from that time (although it's already pretty clear that powerful mages and certain other important people in Britannia live several times longer than the commonfolk, right? And he has been experimenting with immortality anyway).

So we're left with the explanation R. Garriott gave in some interview or another where he says that Brittanian worlds run on "Narnia" time - that is, while you're in one world you have no idea how much time will pass on another (implication being: time runs at the speed of plot). Perhaps time ran more quickly for a while just after the turmoil of the Ophidian War? Perhaps everything is just still in the temporal crapper thanks to all the damage Minax did in Ultima II? Or perhaps it's just a game with an interesting but imperfect plot, take it for what it is.

Post by **marzo** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:11 am

The funny thing about the blackrock serpents: given that the 3 of them are supposed to emulate the three serpents in their poses of their "combined" configuration (as in the endgame), you should be able to simply rotate the chaos blackrock serpent to get the order blackrock serpent (and the other way around, obviously)... How everyone in the game world manages to tell them apart is a mystery.

Jets Connor · Post by **Jets Connor** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:12 am

No, you wouldn't be able to rotate them, and this was my original problem with the hole in the ground. The blackrock serpents, at least as far as the graphics are concerned, aren't simply in a slithering zig-zag position, they're in a 3d spiral. It should be physically impossible to rotate them into position without putting the tail up where the head should be.

Andrea B Previtera · Post by **Andrea B Previtera** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:07 am

Is there something in SI that isn't eerie, disturbing, or unexplicably mysterious? After a couple seasons of "LOST", I found myself thinking "Must be the Serpent Isle!". Let me recap:

- Monks waiting for a prophet to return from the void
- Extremely ancient ruins of a population than vanished leaving for other worlds
- (Gwenno) Frozen woman in a remote underground cavern, when resurrected will act like she's lost her soul
- (Cantra) Slained 12 years old girl. Same lost soul/mind as Gwenno, the things she says are as disturbing as they can be
- The banes
- Dupre that *cremates himself alive*
- The Fawn Lady, *skinned alive*
- Shamino's creepy castle, the centuries old ghost of his wife chasing him
- That girl's soul trapped in a stone for *eons*
- The deserted northern forests, the abandoned huts, ship, castle etc.
- The whole wall of light / chaos-order-balance serpents concept
- That "dream land" and all the eerie things that take place there (just think of the ranger crying over his girlfriend's dead body, which then resurrects as a skeleton that attacks him if I am not wrong)
- Boydon, Petra

And I am sure I could go on. All of that stuff isn't just "crazy" and isn't actually scary. Yet populated or inspired lots of disturbing dreams to me, sixteen years ago...

alagner · Post by **alagner** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:51 am

- That "dream land" and all the eerie things that take place there (just think of the ranger crying over his girlfriend's dead body, which then resurrects as a skeleton that attacks him if I am not wrong)

Wasn't that a bit different and happening in Freedom Mts.? Or maybe there are two rangers mourning their dead girlfriends? Though I've never met one in dreamland.

Btw - does Lost resemble SI that much? 'Cuz if it does, then I'll probably start watching it

BTW - I'd add to that list the shipwreck in the icy north, that contains fire key [same as the one from Furnace?] in its hold. And the talking skeleton at Vasculio's crypt in Skullcrusher. And after banes' release - jesters everywhere xD

Andrea B Previtera · Post by **Andrea B Previtera** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:00 pm

Right Alagner! That happens in the mountains of freedom, which by the way I forgot. "Mountains - of - freedom". Disturbing name in itself, expecially considered they're supposed to be an unescapable place of torments - and inhabited by heavily disturbing denizens.

Lost doesn't resemble SI at all if not for... that atmosphere that constantly walk on the line between eerie and disturbing. And, well, it's all about an island too

Jets Connor · Post by **Jets Connor** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:18 pm

The dead girlfriend in the Mountains of Freedom doesn't become a skeleton, though. When you place flowers by his girlfriend's corpse, the ranger is grateful and in thanks he goes and unsticks a stuck lever... pulling so hard that he turns into a skeleton and falls to pieces.

Alright, just a little bit disturbing.

Andrea B Previtera · Post by **Andrea B Previtera** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:46 pm

Somewhere else there's a girl who's looking for her horse, which is a Nightmare (black stallion with, uhm, flaming hoofs). When she finds it, it kills her and inside her body there's a key you need. Is that there too? Or the dream land? I think I should play SI again...

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:12 pm

""But if that's the case, and we know that the Brittanian time interval between Ultima 4 and Ultima 7 must be at least 220 years or so and probably much more (the interval between Ultimas 6 and 7 alone is specifically given in-game as 200 years), then thousands of years would have passed from when Brittanians first settled the Serpent Isle to when Batlin arrives. This is a bit excessive; I seem to recall being under the impression that only 5 or 6 generations, roughly, have passed since the Serpent Isle was settled. (I think there might be dialogue by someone in the Sleeping Bull or Blue Boar that suggests this, can't recall for sure offhand.) Mythran, in fact, is still alive from that time (although it's already pretty clear that powerful mages and certain other important people in Britannia live several times longer than the commonfolk, right? And he has been experimenting with immortality anyway).""

Well, we can assume that the date given in Ultima 5, 6, and 7 is the date since Lord British established his kingdom in Ultima 1. So, between the prelude to Ultima 1 and 5, 139 years have passed. Also, I'm certain that at least a decade passed between Ultimas 3 and 4, if not 2 decades. It might be even longer than that; 22 years pass between Ultimas 5 and 6, and many of the people of Brittania-- the companions and several characters from Ultima 5-- barely aged (Sutek might have aged quite a bit, but that's because he goes mad between 5 and 6.)
I would have to look at the language in the U4 booklet to see if it indicates how much time has passed between 3 and 4. We can assume the following:

--Ultima 1 takes place around 110-135 years before Ultima 5
--Ultima 2 takes place 10 years after the end of Ultima 1
--Ultima 4 takes place 10-30 years after Ultima 3
--Ultima 5 probably takes place about 10 years after Ultima 4
--Ultima 6 definitely occurs 22 years after Ultima 5 began
--Ultima 7 definitely takes place 200 years after the beginning of Ultima 6

Jets Connor · Post by **Jets Connor** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:58 pm

The woman and her nightmare (that horse) were in the Mountains of Freedom, only metres away from the ranger. It wasn't actually hers, though. It belonged to the evil wizard who'd set up shop there.

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:58 pm

There's also a ship deed in Black Gate that gives the date of completion as 105, so this COULD be an indicator of around when Ultima 4 took place. (We know it took place sometime after Ultima 3 because it lists the manufacture origin as Trinsic)
One might hypothesize that either:
A. Sosaria became Britannia in the year 100
B. The Quest of the Avatar began in 100.

Jets Connor · Post by **Jets Connor** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:01 pm

Oblivious: when you say Mythran, do you mean Erstam?

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:26 am

^^Yes, sorry.

alagner · Post by **alagner** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:10 am

>>[Nightmare] belonged to the evil wizard who'd set up shop there.

How do you know that?
By the way - do you know that casting Locate spell in the place with a blue lever [you know, the one you teleport to in freedom for a while] tells you, that you're in Icy Plains?

>>There's also a ship deed in Black Gate that gives the date of completion as 105, so this COULD be an indicator of around when Ultima 4 took place. (We know it took place sometime after Ultima 3 because it lists the manufacture origin as Trinsic)

You mean the one found in a hidden cavern on a small island south of Trinsic/East of Jhelom? Wasn't there also a deed of Golden Hinde from U6?

Olarin_lost_his_password · Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:19 pm

I forgot that Ultima V does start in Brittanian year 139 or something around that, the year is even given in game in the status window isn't it? But does that year-numbering system start before Ultima I when British gains a castle, or after Ultima III when British unites Brittania and establishes the Virtues? I thought it was the latter but I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment. Regardless, the point is that the timing doesn't scale well with the apparent timing in Serpent Isle (although specific time lengths are not given in Serpent Isle).

William · Post by **William** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:01 pm

This discussion has spurred me to dig out my old Ultima manuals to look for clues

Currently I'm most interested in SI.

Erstam does mention time in a note in the manual for SI.

Under his description of Monitor, he comments on the clan system, "In more than two hundred years, the tenuous ties among the three have weakened remarkably little."

So we can guess that Erstam and the other exiles have been around SI for a little more than 200 years.

I'm curious how the Ophidians fit in with Shamino's Castle, White Dragon, and the former town of Gorlab...all three clearly not related to Ophidian culture.

alagner · Post by **alagner** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:59 pm

There's one more thing that puzzles me a lot, though not exactly time, but rather generally SI-related: where the heck were the Serpent Pillars located? Judging from what we see in the intro, somewhere in the cold, northern parts of Britannia, but where exactly?

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:51 pm

""Wasn't there also a deed of Golden Hinde from U6?""

Yes, but the date is given from about 20 years after Ultima 6 began.

Definitely, quite some time had to pass between Ultimas 3 and 4, because there had to be enough time for complete civil upheaval (the only towns left from Ultima 3 are Britain and Yew) and a bloody war (Bloody Plains)
Also, I doubt 100 years passed since Exodus as the U4 Book of Lore says the heroes from U3 are likely to still be alive.

Jets Connor · Post by **Jets Connor** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:55 pm

Alagner: The Wizard's name is Lorthondo. There's a scroll in the chest in the store room, with all the carrots. The scroll instructs the reader to take care of his rabbit (by feeding it) and his nightmare (by taking it through the teleporter to the grassy plains east of Monitor once a day. This is surrounded by a chest high wall, thus foiling any chance to escape the mountains of freedom that way). The scroll goes on to say not to let the woman near the nightmare because it's scared of her for some reason, and that if you do a good job he might let you out some day. This is the same evil wizard you kill by letting the daemon out of the black sword.

Jets Connor · Post by **Jets Connor** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:13 pm

Also in response to Alagner: your question about the pillars makes mewonder how th britannian climate is distributed in the first place. Jhelom is tropical, Dagger Isle is cold (I think - it was icy in Ultima Online, anyway) but then there's a desert very close by, around vesper... Oh, and it's autumn in trinsic, but only in Trinsic (or Britannia is mostly full of Evergreens and the only Deciduous trees are native to Trinsic).

In any case, one of the best pieces of dialogue in Serpent Isle, from memory, is when one of the companions points out that it's colder, so it must not be Britannia. So maybe it was particularly -warm- ice from which the serpent pillars rose, or Serpent Isle really is very cold. Unless I imagined that dialogue. It's possible.

alagner · Post by **alagner** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:16 pm

I must have missed or forgotten the scroll, but I know who Lorthondo is

Thanks for the answer.

Salicias · Post by **Salicias** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:02 am

If I remember correctly from one of the videos, the serpent pillars rise from the frozen sea, so we may not see them in normal travel. Also, the frozen sea could be anywhere, as I've never been to a torus planet to see what the climate is like. It is even winter when we are in 'the black gate', though we see no frozen seas. The only real evidence is that Lock Lake doesn't stink so much. Sosaria really is confusing as far as climate goes.

Salicias

Andrea B Previtera · Post by **Andrea B Previtera** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:22 am

@Jets: that piece of dialogue exists. It's in the very beginning if I am not wrong, I think Iolo also says something about hoping that Gwenno brought some warm clothes with her!

I wish I could have said him "Yeah, warm clothes surely helped" upon entering the cavern where she's frozen in an ice cube.

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:59 am

""Oh, and it's autumn in trinsic, but only in Trinsic (or Britannia is mostly full of Evergreens and the only Deciduous trees are native to Trinsic).""

Actually no, plotwise it's harvest-season in Britain, Paws, and Moonglow, thus being autumn. It's also autumn throughout all of temperate Britannia, as indicated by the red-leaved maples. (though not all of the maple trees are red-leaved. Some are only beginning to turn yellow, though they tend to possess fewer leaves IIRC)
You'll also note that the street trees (elms or hornbeams I think) have turned leaves. It's definitely autumn in Brittania.
For what it's worth, there are plenty of deciduous trees to be found in Northwest Brittania, and they also dot the Deep Forest.

Lemee see...

In Trinsic, it's almost exclusively street trees, with the odd fruit tree here and there. South of Trinsic are some red to beginning-to-turn maples and the odd oak and baobab (the oaks are not named, but they're clearly oaks) Mostly you've got evergreens. There are a LOT of maples in this region.

YEW: There's a bigass oak tree outside Empathy Abbey. The abbey and graveyard are full of Yew trees (I recall reading somewhere that traditionally Yews are popular graveyard plantings due to the Celts associating them with death and the underworld.) West of the Abbey you see the same stuff as in Trinsic, but decidious trees are more sparse and there are no oaks. In Deep Forest we see an oak and a baobab here and there, and some yellowing maples, and of course clusters of silverwood trees. There are red maples towards Yew's coast, but not in Deep Forest. Lots of maples towards the coast, and the occasional oak.

SPIRITWOOD: Lots of maples in the northern half, fewer (all yellow rather than red) in the southern half. No oaks, but there are plenty of a tree I can't identify in North Spiritwood (elder and/or hazel perhaps; these were also present south of Trinsic. There were a few in Deep Forest as well-- they were very sparse, though.)

MOONGLOW: Mostly evergreens, very sparse decidious trees. A few yellow maples, an oak and a baobab here and there... Some street trees and topiaries (most likely boxwood) planted on Brion's property. Couple red maples in the southern area of Moonglow.

MINOC: In Minoc itself it's just evergreens and maples, with a stray oak here and there.. Lots of maples. Lot more biodiversity where the swamps used to be.

BRITAIN: Lots of street trees and fruit trees. In the surrounding woods it's mostly evergreens, maples, and the stray hazel/elder. In Paws it's the same, except there's also a stray baobab here and there.

SWAMPS: The swamps are all the same. Yellow waterlilies (Nuphar lutea?), bald cypress trees, and willows (the weeping tree) on the borders between swamp and upland. I do not know what the red-flowered plant is supposed to be. I think the blue ones are supposed to be a blue rose, and the purple ones are Amorphophallus titanum *titan arum* (both the blue and purple ones are less common, but found in the swamps east of Deep Forest) The tall whites ones are Veratrums (false hellebore). They can be found in the swamp south of Minoc, and they aslo grow on the Valorian Isles and in the jungle areas north of the desert along with blue roses.

Brambles grow only on dry mountain slopes.

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:24 pm

Oops, sorry, the white plume plants in Jhelom are likely to be flowering gingers of some type, rather than veratrums. I also forgot that there are lots of elephant ears (Colocasia) in Jhelom. Jhelom is obviously supposed to be a facsimile of Hawaii.

I have also identified most of the plants in the Great Desert. They are Sonoran/Mojave natives, namely Saguaro cactus, Opuntia (prickly pear), Yucca brevifolia (Joshua tree), and Century Plants (Centaurium spp.) Though the century plants could be any number of genuses in the agave family (Centauriums are the most likely however.)

The large, feathery-leaved 'fern', at least when it appears in Jhelom and NE of the desert, is actually a cycad. In the swamps however, it might be some type of bigass liverwort. I don't know what the little fern-like thing with red flowers growing on the nurselogs in the swamps is supposed to be, though. (perhaps it could be a pitcher plant? They have red flowers, but I don't think they grow on rotting wood)

Oh, there are also Dracaenas in Jhelom.

I also forgot my assessment of Cove:
There isn't much native forest here. There are lots of poppy fields, lots of white weeds (queen anne's lace/Daucus carota most likely). There are all sorts of things in the Garden of Love. Topiaries (boxwood), a willow, a very tall oak, a yellowing maple.... Some Amorphophallus (titan arum), blue rose... There are poppies under a trellis, so I'm guessing these are supposed to be like-- a red-flowered vine, maybe cardinal climber/cypress vine (type of morning-glory)

I'm at a loss as to what the long scraggly, purple flowered reed-like things are supposed to be (Hebe? Nah, that can't be right... Giant allium? That doesn't seem right either... I'm at a loss). I don't know what those woody ferns are, either. Tree fern, I guess?

Jets Connor · Post by **Jets Connor** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:41 pm

I guess I didn't look hard enough. I come from a land where the leaves stay on in the winter, and the bark falls off, and "leaf green" is just another shade of brown. A glance at a Britannian Forest in Ultima VII looked abiut right for any time of year.

Baskar RuneScythe · Post by **Baskar RuneScythe** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:37 am

Dang, Jets.. Guessin you have a lot of evergreen's, eh? You need to get surrounded by maples, ash, oak, or walnuts sometime...

Natreg · Post by **Natreg** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:57 am

Getting back to the timeline discussion

This is how I see it:

Ultima I: Year 0 (UO states the current date after the destruction of the Gem. I think it could also work for the main Ultima

Ultima II: 63 (it says in Ultima III that 20 years have passed since Minax was defeated. Also it says that several years pass since ultima 1 until an orc appears. And later it says that the orcs in the villages are descendants of that orc, so it should be some time apart from Ultima I.

Ultima II: Year 83 - This one is from the manual, I know it's based on a real Earth date, but it works well in my opinion.

Ultima IV: Not clear. I think 105 or so is a good date.

Ultima V: year 135

Ultima VI: year 161

Ultima VII: Iolo says it has been 200 years after u6

Ultima IX: the pirates in bucaners tavern say 200 years have happened

Natreg · Post by **Natreg** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:34 am

Sorry for the double post I meant Ultima V: Year 139

Jets Connor · Post by **Jets Connor** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:14 pm

Baskar: yes, I am positively surrounded by evergreens, or at least everbrowns. We do have a few oaks scattered around, though.

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:25 am

""Ultima II: 63 (it says in Ultima III that 20 years have passed since Minax was defeated. Also it says that several years pass since ultima 1 until an orc appears. And later it says that the orcs in the villages are descendants of that orc, so it should be some time apart from Ultima I.""

It also says that the time between 1 and 2 is "long enough for a young girl to grow up" (obviously referring to Minax). Since Minax was 14 when Mondain died, that would logically be about 10-15 years.
Hmmm....

Gunnar · Post by **Gunnar** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:08 am

You can find an Ultima timeline at this location: http://www.ultimaaiera.com/timeline/

Jets Connor · Post by **Jets Connor** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:15 am

Did they make any of that up?

Earthquake Damage · Post by **Earthquake Damage** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:01 am

For all their attention to detail, they neglect to note that the "building" in SI replaced by the Royal Mint was a lighthouse.

Natreg · Post by **Natreg** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:28 pm

"It also says that the time between 1 and 2 is "long enough for a young girl to grow up" (obviously referring to Minax). Since Minax was 14 when Mondain died, that would logically be about 10-15 years.
Hmmm...."

The exact quote is this:

"At last, the world was beatiful again and life was to be enjoyed, savored.
So it was for several years, long enough for a child to grow to adulthood."

So those were the peaceful times between Ultima I and Ultima II, but not necesarily the time Ultima II starts.

After that it starts talking about how the orc appeared on a farm and the orcs that live now in the villages descended from that one.

it also says that the people ignored the sings of evil reappearing at first.

Later the manual talks about Minax and how she did cause the holocaust on Earth.

So that's why I think that some more years passed, and not just the time Minax took to grow up. It's true that 63 years is a lot, but she is a mage after all. Probably she has a longer lifespan than usual.

btw, where did it say Minax was 14 when Mondain died? The manual did mention she was 11 when she became Mondain's Apprentice, but I don't remember seeing anywhere she was 14 when he died.

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 4:33 pm

""btw, where did it say Minax was 14 when Mondain died? The manual did mention she was 11 when she became Mondain's Apprentice, but I don't remember seeing anywhere she was 14 when he died.""

Maybe I'm just imagining things, then.

In that case, you're probably right about the timeline.

I know that somehow, the year 100 must be important. Possibilities:
--This is the year when the legend of the Avatar is disseminated
--This is the year when Britannia finally becomes united (remember there's a civil war and wars against the undead/monsters between 3 and 4)
--This is the year that the Avatar appears

BTW, that timeline-- I would like to see one that sticks strictly to Lookingglass Studios and OSI canon. I don't know where they got a lot of their timeline entries from (the fan projects, I'm guessing)

Natreg · Post by **Natreg** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:16 pm

I thought about writing one myself some time ago, but it's difficult doing so when most of the events (even important ones) have unknown dates.

Also, the ones done already are really good. I don't like some parts of them, but for the most part they are really well done.

the 14 year minax as I said, I just don't remember, but that does not mean it's not right.

I know that the u2 manual mentions 3 year and 11 year minax. Maybe you got that from some UO related material or maybe it was from some book in u7 or the conversation with Erethian

Why should year 100 be important?

Kensu · Post by **Kensu** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:14 pm

Doesn't Estram mention being 900 years old, right at the end of the manual?

darrenor64 · Post by **darrenor64** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:58 pm

Regarding the frozen seas that the pillars rise from:
The only reason there is so much ice in the opening movie is due to a disk space limitation; it was easier to compress static arctic ice than turbulent waves. If I recall from the original dennis loubet animation, the pillars actually rise from the ocean before the ship is teleported.

I always assumed U7 took place in Autumn because of all the pumpkins.

MeddlingMonk · Post by **MeddlingMonk** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:44 pm

I always assumed U7 took place in Autumn because of all the pumpkins.

Lord Wossname in Cover comes right out and says that summer is over when talking about the smell of Lock Lake. And some trees show autumn colors (mostly in Trinsic).