BG Vs SI

MagicMop · Post by **MagicMop** » Mon Jan 28, 2002 6:35 am

Not sure if this has been discussed before, but I was wondering what the general opinion is around here. In short:

Which Is Better: Black Gate or Serpent Isle!

I just finished working my way through both of them with Exult (thanks Exult team!!) and I've decided that I like the Black Gate better. Why, I hear you ask? Well, allow me to explain:

The main reason is that you can pretty much do what you like in the Black Gate. If you want, you can go straight from Trinsic, and grab the Magic Carpet, and fly to New Magincia for a chat with Katrina - or you can slowly make your way across the mainland, buy a boat and see Brittania the traditional way.

If you want to be a saint, you can help most people with little errands, and get that warm fuzzy feeling that you're making Brittania a better place. Or you can go around and slaughter innocent people, and still win the game.

The quests are mostly optional, but lots of fun to do. The story is a race against time, but you never feel rushed, nor is any time limit imposed. In my opinion, it seems to find a perfect balance (no SI pun intended).

SI on the other hand has very few optional quests, and mostly must be completed in order. I felt quite bogged down by YET ANOTHER system of virtues to try and sort out, with all the temples etc.

And the arrival of the Avatar doesn't help hardly any of the citizens of SI. Quite the opposite - you all know what I mean. The Avatar doesn't come across as very virtuous in SI, even if you want to play that way.

Though the story is quite good and it's still an excellent game. I just like the Black Gate better.

So, that's my opinion. What do you guys think?

MM

Post by **drcode** » Mon Jan 28, 2002 8:28 am

I also like BG better, even though it was a lot buggier than SI.

pcmage · Post by **pcmage** » Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:19 am

I prefer BG, too. You have much more freedom in where to go and what to do. Although SI has som nice features like enhanced magic system(especially when you have the ring of endless reagent from Silver seed) , the Keyring, etc., It has more very annoying parts, too. Like the money system or the limeted choice of party members. And finally, I feel much more 'at Home' in the classical Britannia of BG, while the serpent Isle is just strange, with it's set of new customs and virtues.

raven566 · Post by **raven566** » Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:30 am

I also prefer BG over SI. While SI offers some good enhancements and cool items that pcmage mentions, in BG you can use a boat and have more freedom, along with lots of side quests. And SI gets fairly complex for first timers while BG is fairly straightforward. It also kinda sucked how Origin chose to end the game, with the majority of the population being killed.

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Mon Jan 28, 2002 8:39 pm

BG plusses...

1) I like the "go wherever you like" aspect.
2) Plenty of side-quests. I mean, to win the game, you don't have to help Sprellic, you don't have to find out about Natassia's father, you don't have to catch Garrit the snake venom thief, you don't have to free Weston. You're free to do as you please. I do all of them, you know, because I'm the Avater and all.

3) Consise conversations. I feel like I'm speaking with the characters in SI for hours about nothing. All they seem to do is whine too.

In BG, the characters shut up before they're too annoying.
4) Noteriaty. Everyone in Britannia loves the Avatar.

Although I thought it was a nice touch to have everyone hate LB in SI. That way, Dupre can open his big, dumb mouth.

5) Bread Baking for money. I love that you can work for a living. You can be an errand runner (lug meat back and forth) and you can be a baker. I thought that was so cool the first time I saw it. I still do.
6) Money is hard to come by. With a large party, there's more expenses. I have to budget my spending so I have enough to train everyone, buy armor for the people who don't start with any, etc. I don't gamble at the House of Games. Too easy that way.

Also on this note... Everyone's pack in BG isn't overstuffed like SI. My SI characters have so much crap.

SI plusses...

1) Paperdolls
2) Portraits are better. BG had little cartoony pictures, SI has well done portraits (even though it's the same 4 or 5 people that occupy SI, they just have different hair colors, facial hair, and hats).
3) Cool items. The keychain, the reagent ring, the helm of light.
4) Boyden
5) Nookie. I love how the Avatar carries his weapon out from behind the curtain before the poking takes place. Better than the simple description BG gives in the Bath House.

BG wins.

Post by **nadir** » Tue Jan 29, 2002 4:33 am

Exult plusses:

1) Paperdolls in BG
2) Real time scaling with image enhancement
3) Comprehensive in-game menus
4) Development environment
5) Multiplatform
6) Open source
7) Real time stats display
8) much more !

Exult wins

Post by **Colourless** » Tue Jan 29, 2002 6:38 am

SI, is better. One really good reason... the F key! Feeding is a real pain in the ass in BG.

Really all the extra hot keys and the various general interface improvments (paperdolls, unified combat stat gump, the 'met' flag) made SI much nicer to play.

Regarding conversation, I actually think the SI conversation are much better than the BG ones simply because SI is more in depth. The realistic portaits were great too. Overall I think the SI plot is better and more interersting than BG. SI was a complete unknown, and that is what made it great. The scripted sequences in SI were really quite cool too. BG really had nothing like them.

Though, it's each to his own I guess. SI was more about the story, and BG was more about the entire world. I prefer the story.

-Colourless Dragon

Soule · Post by **Soule** » Tue Jan 29, 2002 8:21 am

SI has a LARGE and involving background story, and you have your ciompanions with you.
BG is just 'wow! the avatar is back!'

Many people like BG but I kinda like SI

RazorBlade · Post by **RazorBlade** » Tue Jan 29, 2002 10:51 am

I agree with both of you; there is nothing so important in a RPG than the story. Its the story who involved me so much that I played it longer than anything else. And I think W.Spector is a genious;)(so I also love UW,SS,DX and so on;))
But for the story and the "Im in the game feeling" I like BG, this includes not only the interactivity but also the subquests, the conversations the big world which is impressive unique-I mean I never got lost, although BigG said so;))

Hacki Dragon · Post by **Hacki Dragon** » Tue Jan 29, 2002 4:59 pm

IMO, BG and SI are better than any previous Ultima (or even U8 and U9 :p), but I still prefer BG. There is a more immersive RPG feeling because you can do everything, and there are so many small magic moments for Ultima vets. (e.g. the aged Iolo at the beginning, or LB's joke about the usual "name, job" procedure)

>>(even though it's the same 4 or 5 people that occupy SI, they just have different hair colors, facial hair, and hats).

Is that true? I never noticed that two people looked similar... (If there really were so little actors, then they did a great job indeed)

raven566 · Post by **raven566** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 7:26 am

In my opinion both Ultima 7's are the best Ultimas ever made. The Ultima Underworlds make a close second.

Thomas Decker · Post by **Thomas Decker** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 8:25 am

Ultima Underworld I was a technical and gameplay revolution. The story was kind of bland, however. Whereas the story of Underworld II was supreme and a true addition to the Ultima epic. Better than U8 and U9, no doubt.

Further underworld II plusses:
Magic system
Character portraits (borrowed partly from SI, but the new ones - Nystul!! - are perfect! Any way to include them in BG?)
Character classes, skills
Not completely linear story - you could revisit other worlds and complete quests earlier.

(Nystul in particular - I had no respect for him in BG - until I played UW2... Now I know why LB has a royal mage.)

No wonder the Ultima team got jealous and mostly ignored the Underworld II storyline - At least that's what I felt...

Hacki Dragon · Post by **Hacki Dragon** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 11:35 am

>>No wonder the Ultima team got jealous and mostly ignored the Underworld II storyline - At least that's what I felt...

They weren't jealous, they were stopped by EA

The plots of Ultima 8 (and even of Serpent Isle) could not be finished.

Ultima Ascension, if this is what you mean, does not only ignore the Underworlds, but nearly everything that has to with Ultima. (btw, in the original plot of UIX, there would have even been a subquest with the Slasher of Veils)

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 4:08 pm

I think there are about 4 or 5 basic faces in SI. I'm sure there are more, I was exaggerating. But everyone with a round face looks exactly like Caladin. That was the big one that stuck out to me. I think they used pictures of the people involved in the making of the game as models. <-- My opinion.

Jon Miller · Post by **Jon Miller** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 4:42 pm

I would have to say Serpent Isle, hands down. I remember when I first played the two, I loved Black Gate, and felt constricted by the linearity of Serpent Isle. If you got stuck, you couldn't even waste time adventuring; it was clear you had to accomplish something in specific place, but you'd have no idea what. Like when I neglected to ask Bucia about the people in Moonshade, thinking that stuff was informational but unimportant. Or when, having reached this point a second time, I didn't have the Hound of Doskar do some bit of tracking, since I already knew where to go.

But having played both games a couple times since then, I much prefer SI. Part of it is the refinements they made the second time out. The portraits really do make a difference, and I like that pretty much everyone has a unique sprite. Also, stuff like the little blurbs that hang over characters' heads sometimes. And the paperdolls... Of course, a lot of this stuff is now part of BG, since Exult.

But in the end, like some of you guys have said, it comes down to the story, and the story in Serpent Isle is far superior. I love that the conversations are more in-depth, even if it's boring in one or two places. I love that things change as you progress--people sail from Sleeping Bull to Moonshade, and have a whole new set of things to talk about. Both the quests and the little animated skits (meaning stuff like banquets) are more involved, more exciting.

Also, it's great to see familiar faces and places in BG, but SI makes interesting use of Ultima history, and you have with you three of the most interesting Brittanian characters, more vividly drawn than ever. Finally, even though I always put off the Wall of Lights, and have a little less fun afterward, I think it's so badass that your companions go on a rampage. I'm always telling that part to people who have no interest in the game...

Last thing in a pretty long post: in BG, when you finish with a city and come back later, it's really boring. Ever returned to Trinsic? Finnigan will still question you about the murder, like a month later. Yeah, once or twice there'll be one character who now has new information, or you can talk to a couple people with the cube. But for the most part, things are so static. Serpent Isle was always rearranging itself, culminating in the Wall of Lights destruction. I'll never forget seeing Lady Yelinda with no skin...

Anyway, my two cents.

Ephemerides Dragon · Post by **Ephemerides Dragon** » Thu Jan 31, 2002 9:16 am

I've just started SI but BG will always be a personal favorite. It always boggles my mind that i've had it ever since i got the top 10 collection when it was new and i never installed it or played it (not that i knew about about comps back then). I started playing BG and it warped my concept of a good rpg. After playing an ultima it sorta kills all other rpg's with it's vastness, it's depth and high fun level. By far any ultima is atleast twice as good as any other rpg of it's time (and ultima 6-7 being the highest quality rpg's ever). Even if SI turns out to be a better RPG BG will always be my favorite from it blowing me away the first moment i went into the game.

Darkfist Dragon · Post by **Darkfist Dragon** » Thu Jan 31, 2002 11:11 pm

Ephemerides Dragon, I know how you feel.
I was hooked up on Ultima by U6 though, but then it not also hooked me up on the Ultima's alone, but I think it was the beginning of my Roleplaying fanatism *winks*. Playing this game showed me how much fun a RPG is, and well, that also led finally to my wife, who I fell in love while we roleplayed online together.

Soule · Post by **Soule** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 12:17 am

After Serpent Isle, I hardly have any good RPGS to play anymore? Are there any RPGS like Ultima 7? I m dying for a good game.

XxVenomxX · Post by **XxVenomxX** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 4:41 am

I'm not claiming it's just like Ultima 7, but for a huge living/breathing world, a damn cool story, and such, try out Gothic. IMO, it's one of the best games I've played since U7

Daemongar · Post by **Daemongar** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 6:01 am

Games from same era:

Darklands
Betrayal at Krondor
Star Trails series
Ultima Underworld 1 & 2 (!)
Wizardry 7
The other Ultimas 1-6

Recent games:

Planescape: Torment (!)
Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 plus expansions
Fallout 1 & 2
Wizardry 8
Arcanum
Icewind Dale and expansion

Post by **nadir** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 6:22 am

Baldur's gate ? Yawn

MagicMop · Post by **MagicMop** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 7:37 am

After Ultima7, I think the Fallout games are quite a bit of fun. It's not the "living breathing world(tm)" that Ultima7 is (ie NPCs don't go to bed at night...) but it certainly wins some points for being able to do pretty much whatever you want.

Hmm, should I free these slaves, or should I become a slave driver?

I actually enjoyed Baldurs Gate quite a bit, though it was very static and linear - oh, and the interface sucked. I'm trying to hunt down a copy of Planescape Torment at the moment, cause I've heard that story wise, it can't be beat.

Now, lets see... the tally thus far...

Black Gate: 8 Votes
Serpant Isle: 3 Votes
Both: 1 Vote
Exult: 1 Vote... though, I think we're all voting for this one...

MM

Darksheer Dragon · Post by **Darksheer Dragon** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 7:42 am

I would have to say that BG was my favorite. I didn't know much about what RPGs were like as I was eleven years old when I got it. All I had was Dragon Warrior for the NES, Savage Empire and UW. Now DW was good, but it got kind of monotonous when you had to wait so long to gain a level and actually go somewhere. -sigh- the inferior capabilities of the NES..... SE was pretty good, but it was somewhat outdated and I found that the myrmidex (for all who have never played SE, myrmidex are like the bees in U7) were quite fast-thinking on my computer.
>....you attack!
myrmidex critical!
>myrmidex attack!
you are lightly damaged!
>myrmidex attack!
you are heavily damaged!
>myrmidex attack!
you are critical!
>myrmidex attack!
you are dead!

UW was really awesome, but the storyline (as far as i could tell back then) was too much damsel in distress (I knew nothing about the Slasher of Veils then). When I bought U7, I really loved it and I didn't think there was a better RPG. Every RPG I played after that didn't quite do itself justice compared to BG. Even the Final Fantasy series, which I liked very much, was too linear in its stories. And for some reason it felt like BG lasted longer than SI. Maybe it did. Maybe it didn't. I liked all the variation in locations in SI, but I liked BG better because of the story, the ability to do what you want when you want to do it, the large amount of different monsters and weapons and the various vehicles you could use. Which brings me to a question: I had read about karts in U7 somewhere, but I never found them. Were there any?

Post by **artaxerxes** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 7:47 am

well, I put my bet for SI, so that it is up to 4!

I enjoyed SI better because of the richness of the story (I still don't get everything!) and the interface improvement over BG (paperdoll especially).

I know BG supports paperdoll thanks to exult, but still, when I played BG and SI for the first time, I was really impressed with paperdoll.

Also, I enjoyed a set of new spells. Since I played extensively on U6, having the same (roughly) spells in BG was nice but having a whole new bunch in SI was great (Create Automaton, Fire Snake, Erstam's Surprise, etc).

I also loved the sequence where I transmute into Petra's body. That was also a cool effet. And of course the trial of Dupre, the Banquet of Monitor, the assault for the witch about controlling the demons etc ... all those were marvelous bonuses in favour of SI.

Artaxerxes

Kurt · Post by **Kurt** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 7:59 am

I like BG best. The only thing that sways me towards ALMOST liking SI as much are the 'cinematic' sequences, as Artaxerxes just mentioned like the banquet, trial etc.

raven566 · Post by **raven566** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 11:59 am

Yes, the "cinematic" sequence of SI are pretty cool. But while SI has some new technology and a more in-depth storyline, it just doesn't seem as the programmers put as much effort in it. Lots of space is wasted on the map and the ending is obviously a quick fix just to finish it. If there could be a way to put the Serpent Pilllars in Britainnia in the BG so you could travel from Serpent Isle to Brtiannia and back , hence combining the games, (while fixing SI's "flaws" in map and ending) that would be quite an awesome achievment.

Ephemerides Dragon · Post by **Ephemerides Dragon** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 2:29 pm

Hmmm that sounds damn good. Hint hint exult

I havent gotton this game yet but i must say morrowind looks extremely good. It's not linear (as far as i can tell) best graphix i've ever seen and the npc interaction seems pretty good and near endless as far as i can tell. It's like you could either join the archerers guild or they could take out a contract on your death. Blah blah blah on and on, storyline seems good and so on. I'm also getting Gothic seems like morrowind i'll post my reactions to both.

BTW i just won an auction on ebay for a sega saturn if anyone cares. I'm going to get panzer dragoon its ranked 17 on ign's top rpgs of all time. Poor poor sega reduced to playstation 2 and M$. Oh well atleast they're still alive. They also might be porting PSO to the PC.

Jon Miller · Post by **Jon Miller** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 2:31 pm

Darksheer Dragon, as I recall you can buy a deed for a cart in Trinsic, and pick it up outside the north gate. Though, as a mode of transportation, it doesn't compare to the magic carpet and the mark/recall stones, and I'm not sure it's any faster than walking.

raven566, I agree about the map, but it's probably the result of trying to convert the Lands of Danger and Despair. (Did I get that right?) If you look at it that way, it's actually pretty clever how they set things up. But yeah, the end is a little weak, and it's a little strange the effort they put into places like Furnace, and then there's only one character in the whole place? I guess maybe that was the result of rushing it, too.

Anyways, here's my question for you guys. It seems like BG's strength is its flexibility, and its weakness is a slightly less involving story (a few errand boy quests, and things are generally more static than in SI). Whereas SI's strength is its story, but it's also too linear, too restrictive. My question is, are these correlations necessary? Do you have to confine the hero to a set order of doing things, if you want to go all out in the story department? Alternatively, if you let the hero range wherever they want to, does it mean that the storyline has to be a little more complex?

Or maybe the trick is to have the main storyline, but tons of overlapping sidequests. The main storyline in BG is actually fairly straightforward, but there are so many other places you can go...

Neutronium Dragon · Post by **Neutronium Dragon** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 3:04 pm

Linearity isn't absolutely critical to going all-out on a story, but it does make it significantly easier - allowing fully free wandering like BG with a highly involved story like SI makes for an enormous headache in the number of ways the player can completely mess things up - the number of eventualities that must be planned for goes off the scale.

Trying to achieving that perfect (and probably impossible) balance between the two is something that every game struggles with.

Neutronium Dragon

SB-X · Post by **SB-X** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 7:13 pm

Combining the detailed story with the non-linearity requires writing many, many branches of a story, many more sequences, and ideally
having multiple endings. It's would take a long time but of course it is
possible.

My game vote would have to by for Ultima VI: The False Prophet. I love
the story and it was my first or second Ultima game, so it is the one
that stays with me the most. It would be great if someone would port Ultima 6 to Exult/Ultima7 graphics.

Dread Lord · Post by **Dread Lord** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 9:32 pm

Definately BG over SI, but a thread like this always brings the question to my mind, why the hell would a supposedly intelligent person like the Avatar decide to take a ship through the serpent gates when using the magic carpet would allow easier travel through the world beyond?

Something to think about.

Dread Lord

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Sat Feb 02, 2002 6:06 am

Dread Lord...

Were you allowed to fly the magic carpet over the ocean? I never bothered to find the thing, so I wouldn't know.

Ephemerides Dragon · Post by **Ephemerides Dragon** » Sat Feb 02, 2002 6:16 am

You were the magic carpet rocked! The only way to travel in my eyes.

suraimu · Post by **suraimu** » Sat Feb 02, 2002 8:31 am

What I wanna know is why the Avatar didn't keep the 99 magic carpets
he had in his pocket after Ultima 5. Maybe Lord British demanded them
back, since he stole them from his room?

raven566 · Post by **raven566** » Sat Feb 02, 2002 8:45 am

While SI's storyline is quite involved and complex, there are many things that don't get solved. In the BG, almost every side quest and such in the game gets solved. But in SI, some things you will never solve. For example: What really happened to Angus? Why can't Cantra be cured? What's with that "Gargoyle Catherdral" thing by the swamp? And I'm sure there's others I'm missing.

Let me explain what I meant by "combining" the game. Say after you destroy the Black Gate, the Serpent Pillars are "found" (put there by the game). You go through and you crash your ship on SI like you normally do. Then you play as you normally would. Once you beat the game, the imbalance storms die down and you can buy a boat and travel from Britiannia to SI and back. But something would have to be done with the mass death of everyone. With the map, just put mountains over the places in the ocean where there are underground areas. I don't know if this would be too hard or not. But I know it would be really amazing and I'm sure others would agree.

MagicMop · Post by **MagicMop** » Sat Feb 02, 2002 10:00 am

Well, yes. Combining games would be amazing... but pretty impractical I would think.

From a purist point of view, there is a lot of stuff that happens between the end of BG and the beginning of SI. A full year passes (I think) and the events of UW2 take place - so unless there is a text box that pops up and says *one year later* or something, people will be up in arms.

Also, say the Avatar returns to Brittania after sailing around the waters of SI (and there isn't much water, cause all the empty space is crammed with dungeons), all the BG conversations would need to be changed, otherwise talking to Lord British would still result in him telling you that the Fellowship seems like a decent bunch of people.

Changing the mass death thing would require digging up some of the unused conversations and fully writing others that aren't buried in the code. It would significantly alter the story and break other things that would need to be fixed.

Then there's copywrite issues with changing the original games.

Not that I'm trying to burst your bubble - but it'd be a huge undertaking, and while I'd LOVE to see it, I doubt it'd eventuate.

MM

raven566 · Post by **raven566** » Sat Feb 02, 2002 11:59 am

Yeah I know it's impractical, it's just a thought. . .

Neutronium Dragon · Post by **Neutronium Dragon** » Sat Feb 02, 2002 8:11 pm

Actually, the 'mass death' in Serpent Isle probably *is* solved already by the end of the game.

Many people miss this, but Karnax gives a different speech when you plant the Silver Seed, if the Banes have already been released in the future timeline. In this alternate speech, he mentions that with the Silver Seed planted in the past, people killed by the Banes in the future may be returned to life once balance is restored there.

Neutronium Dragon

Dread Lord · Post by **Dread Lord** » Sat Feb 02, 2002 11:04 pm

Tim, sure ya could fly over the ocean with the magic carpet, could fly over everything but a few really tall buildings. So while you probably couldn't fly over the serpent pillars you could fly between them

Dread Lord

Post by **Colourless** » Sun Feb 03, 2002 4:16 am

Saying it seems like that the programmers put less effort in SI compared to BG is so totally not true. All of the little extras that have been mentioned require more programming. Serpent Isle is a hell of a lot more polished that BG ever was, even though it wasn't actually completed. There are lots of really small things such as when you double click on an NPC in BG the conversation starts instantly, while in SI the NPC will say something, walk towards you, then the conversation will start.

-Colourless Dragon

Dirty Hairy · Post by **Dirty Hairy** » Sun Feb 03, 2002 1:20 pm

Well, i vote for Serpent Isle (which makes it 5 votes). When i got the CD with both BG and SI on it, i started off playing BG, but soon switched to SI, because one of the cool little features in SI was the built-in frame-limiter - BG ran much to fast, und i disliked the "sluggish" feeling programs like slomo created. I later also finished BG, but i think SI definitely has the more complex and interesting plot.
Linearity has its drawbacks (i remember being stuck 'cause i restored an older game after visiting shaminos castle and forgot visiting it once again), but on the other hand, i could wander around in BG and discover many things which didn't fit in the plot at that point of the game. Also, i never quite undertood why you could find three magebanes in BG (pretty cool, though).
But, as i'm just playing though both of them with Exult, one thing i miss in SI are the many, many caves in the mountains and i also miss using ships and the magic carpet (would destroy the plot, though).... and i always wondered why i couldn't cure Cantra...

Pandemonium · Post by **Pandemonium** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 7:53 pm

I've always preferred SI myself, the story came across very strong and I was quite fond of the new lands. I can see the frustration of having your quests planned for you, but I think it also ties you more firmly to the story line. Specifically in 6, I could race through, knowing where the island with the treasure was located, etc.
Despite what I think was a strong story in SI, BG's was very creepy and sinister. One last sidenote, anyone find SI rushed once you hit the wastelands? It seems the entire first chunk is to simply get to the northern forest. After that, the whole thing seems incredibly rushed. Example, the recharging of the black sword even though you really don't seem to be retrapping that demon. That's just my $0.02

Pandemonium · Post by **Pandemonium** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 7:53 pm

I've always preferred SI myself, the story came across very strong and I was quite fond of the new lands. I can see the frustration of having your quests planned for you, but I think it also ties you more firmly to the story line. Specifically in 6, I could race through, knowing where the island with the treasure was located, etc.
Despite what I think was a strong story in SI, BG's was very creepy and sinister. One last sidenote, anyone find SI rushed once you hit the wastelands? It seems the entire first chunk is to simply get to the northern forest. After that, the whole thing seems incredibly rushed. Example, the recharging of the black sword even though you really don't seem to be retrapping that demon. That's just my $0.02

Neutronium Dragon · Post by **Neutronium Dragon** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 8:35 pm

Err... you don't need to retrap Arcadion into the blade - you need it 'empty' to be able to hold the Banes.

Neutronium Dragon

XxVenomxX · Post by **XxVenomxX** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 2:57 am

Right, but you use the flux analyzer on the blade afterwards to restore its powers.

Hacki Dragon · Post by **Hacki Dragon** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 7:11 am

The ending of SI was rushed, thanks to EA. (Ultima 8 was not the first Ultima they messed around with.) There are some notable holes in the plot (e.g. what was the Guardian's role behind all this?).
Despite of that, it's still the best Ultima game as far as story-telling is concerned.

Soule · Post by **Soule** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 10:51 am

I like SI but before venturing North, because from then onwards everyone is dead and interactivity decreases sharply!

Anyway, if exult Studio works out, maybe we'll have UW2 in U7 Engine! Good idea right? (heh)

Everyone should play Planescape Torment: The story is just too spectacular. After playing the game, it led me to wonder a lot of things. The game is very philosophical...What changes the nature of a man?

Icewind Dale is terrible..just fight fight fight.

Fallout series is boring..you dun have interesting companions like Shamino,Dupre,Iolo who comments on your evry action and lands themselves in every strange situation..

Baldur's Gate 1 is *yawn* but 2 is interesting, yet U7 still is the best of all.

Lastly my comment of Final Fantasy. Back when FF6(SNES) came out, my first impression was that the graphics were terrible! SD and big pixels!(imagine) However, as I played on, the plot just drew me on...imagine after defeating the Emperor it's only half of the game!!! But the Ruined World was fun though.. FF7 is good story-wise but FF8 became stale. Didn't play 9 and 10 because it's not ported to the PC..

Phantasy Star Online is already ported to the PC in Asia...but it's all in Jap and I cant read it.

Dantec Dragon · Post by **Dantec Dragon** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 5:06 pm

Heres a little section of an interview I had with Warren Spector, who was the producer of Serpent Isle. I just thought it was relevant to this thread and I should stick it here. Enjoy!

DD: What Ultimas have you been involved with in the past and what was your job in these productions?

WS: I worked on Ultima VI, as Associate Producer. Richard Garriott and I worked out most of the plot details together, in a whirlwind, two week design marathon. After that, I managed the schedules, worked with the writers responsible for conversations and documentation and so on. After that, I worked up an outline for Savage Empire but the project got handed off to Jeff Johannigman and Aaron Allston who took the idea places I never even considered (and did an excellent job of it, too...). My next Ultima project was Martian Dreams. I was the producer on that one, working with designer, Jeff George, and programmer, Mike McShaffry, among many others. The concept, characters, setting and stuff was mine but the details were worked out by the entire team, really. Let's see... After that, it was on to Ultima Underworld (with the intensely talented programmer/designer Doug Church and other Really Smart Folks at Blue Sky Productions) and Ultima VII, Part 2: Serpent Isle, which I produced in-house. The SI team was huge -- I don't even want to try to list everyone or single a couple of people out or try to describe roles. We all wore a lot of hats on that particular team effort! I will say, however, that the joy of SI was that I got to work with artist Denis Loubet extensively and with two incredibly talented designers -- Steve Powers (who's still working with me) and Dave Beyer. See? Now I'm going to disappoint all the other great folks I didn't mention! After that, it was Ultima Underworld 2 and a Serpent Isle add-in module. And after THOSE I took the reins of Ultima IX for about a year (that was a couple of ORIGIN buildings ago and I don't know how many team/technology/plot iterations ago...). I doubt there's anything I might have contributed to U9 left (least I hope that's the case!). So, overall, what is that? Five full-scale projects, one initial concept, one add-in module and one year of helping Ricard out by letting him focus on running ORIGIN for a while. Phew! I think that covers it. Man, that's a lot of living in the Ultima universe! To go into much more detail would be insane. Let's just say that I provided the initial creative vision on some Ultima projects, while on others I provided a sounding board and support (creative, administrative and whatever else was necessary) for designers with a clear idea what they wanted to do. I thought of myself as a Team Wrangler on all of 'em...

DD: Do you know any any other Ultima characters modled after you other then that "Angry Spector named warren" and the spector from Martian Dreams and Savage Empire?

WS: Well, you got almost all of them! You missed the fact that I was Spektor, Knight of the Leopard Clan and Treasurer of Monitor in Serpent Isle. Also, let me go on record right now and remind the world (or as much of it as pays attention to things Ultima) that the Evil Doctor Spector from Savage Empire reformed himself and became the No-Longer-Evil Dr. Spector, the Avatar's friend, in Martian Dreams! Anyway, I had nothing to do with the whole idea of putting my name and my ugly mug in all those games. The teams did that. I think it was their way of getting revenge...

DD: How did you origionaly come to work for origin systems?

WS: I was working in the papergame business -- first with Steve Jackson Games and, later, with TSR when I realized I was in a business that had plateau'ed. Certainly from a business standpoint, papergaming seemed like sort of a dead end but, more important, from a creative standpoint it just wasn't very challenging anymore. (Gee do I use a 20-sided die or a percentile die here? Hoohaa!) Anyway, I got a call from Denis Loubet, with whom I'd worked at SJG, telling me Origin was looking for Associate Producers and was I interested. Computer games? You bet I was interested! I jumped at the chance, interviewed, got an offer, end of story.

DD: Last off, you have mentioned in the past that Martian Dreams was your favorite ultima ever. (this was before the release of SI) does this still hold true? Why?

WS: Well, I still have fond memories of Martian Dreams. I love the Victorian era. I LOVE time travel stories. I love the historical accuracy (as much as we were able to get in there...). I love the fact that you're able to interact with Real Historical Figures. And the team on that game worked so hard and so well together -- it was really a lot of hard but very fun work making MD. On the other hand, there's a LOT of sort of aimless walking around in the game and a bunch of random monster encounters and a kind of clunky interface and some other stuff that dates the game pretty badly... And there's always Serpent Isle, which was the closest I feel I ever got to providing players a Major Epic experience... But, really, I think I'd have to say the original Underworld stands out as my fave these days. I mean, working with Doug and Dan Schmidt and Jon Maiara and James Fleming and Marc LeBlanc and Tim Stellmach and so many others for the first time was an experience I'll never forget. And, in its own little way, I kinda feel that UW changed the world -- just a little bit, mind you, but how many other games have come along to build on what that team did? Yeah. UW's the one.

- Dantec Dragon

Talthanar · Post by **Talthanar** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 6:33 pm

Liked BG for it's non-linear plot.

Liked SI for a darker mood similar to U8.

MV · Post by MV » Sat Feb 16, 2002 1:00 pm

Dread Lord...

Were you allowed to fly the magic carpet over the ocean? I never bothered to find the thing, so I wouldn't know.

If you never saw it how did you complete the sphere generator?

You had to walk right past the carpet to get into the dungeon. It's right at the door to it.