Food for thought..Order Hierophant

Soule · Post by **Soule** » Fri Jan 04, 2002 2:49 am

In Serpent Isle, the Order Hierophant and disciples strived to enter the Wall of Lights into the Void and they did just that. WHat became of them when they entered Wall? Did they ascended? Could this explain the origin of the titans as well as Guardian?

Is Guardian the Order Hierophant?

Post by **Dominus** » Fri Jan 04, 2002 5:25 am

Nope the Guardian is not the Order Hierophant. If you play U9 you get some weak explanation for the Guardian.

Andy · Post by **Andy** » Fri Jan 04, 2002 7:30 am

Ah yes, but Guardian in U9 was not what he was previously intended to be. So what do you think was the original intention for the Guardian to be? In regard to those that walked through the Wall of Lights.... it would be a good tie-in to make them the Titans of Pagan, but that's almost too neat and tidy for me. But I suppose it could be posible though.

Post by **Dominus** » Fri Jan 04, 2002 7:45 am

I'm not really sure that Richard Garriott really had a plan of what the Guardian is supposed to be. More like:
"Let's introduce a new powerfull enemy."
And in the two U7 and the U8 he left enough back doors in so that he could have made anything with the Guardian.

Soule · Post by **Soule** » Fri Jan 04, 2002 8:05 am

Yeah i knew who the Guardian was in the end anyway.. I have since played every Ultimas onwards since 7. 8 and 9 were really terrible, i forced myself to finish it just to at least know the story.

The Order Hierophant was female btw. I was just curious where she ended up when she and her followers stepped thorugh the Wall. They should have ascended rite? God knows?

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Fri Jan 04, 2002 8:18 am

Most likely, they ended up somewhere where the Avatar never met them.

suraimu · Post by **suraimu** » Fri Jan 04, 2002 8:24 am

They ended up on Earth circa 1975 where they banded together and
formed a gigantic software conglomerate in order to take over the
world.

Thomas Decker · Post by **Thomas Decker** » Fri Jan 04, 2002 11:00 am

But then the Avatar could have met them...

Thomas Decker · Post by **Thomas Decker** » Fri Jan 04, 2002 11:01 am

Ha! Wait a second! That is a loose strain of plot someone could use for Ultima 7: Part 3, right?

Neutronium Dragon · Post by **Neutronium Dragon** » Fri Jan 04, 2002 10:25 pm

The Heirophant couldn't have become the Guardian, since we know the Guardian was already around and mucking about with things at the time of the War of Imbalance...

Which actually causes a continuity problem for the explanation of the Guardian's origins - the War of Imbalance was taking place during/prior to U3, yet the Guardian wouldn't have originated until the end of U4.

Neutronium Dragon

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Sat Jan 05, 2002 2:48 am

Does that mean they are working on Ultima7 XP!

Post by **Colourless** » Sat Jan 05, 2002 6:15 am

Actually, I think that the Guardian was always intended to be the negetive half of the Avatar.

There really isn't much reason behind this idea except for a cupple of things said around Ultima 8 time. It was said that originally Ultima 9 was supposed to occur on the Guardians homeworld. In Ultima 8 the Guardian made various reference to Britannia being destroyed and Earth was next.

Assume that at the end of Ultima 8 the Avatar goes to Britannia to find that the Guardian really had taken it over and turned it into a waste land.

We then assume that the Guardian has moved his attention to Earth.

If we assume that the Guardian is the Avatar's negetive half, it makes the Guardians homeworld Earth.

This would fit with the idea that Ultima 9 was supposed to be on the Guardians homeworld, assuming that U9 would be set on a Earth that is under attack from the Guardian.

Of course chances are that is not true, but I like the theory none the less.

-Colourless Dragon

Soule · Post by **Soule** » Sat Jan 05, 2002 7:34 am

Why is the Guardian so powerful? Where did he get the powers to conquer so many worlds?

Imagine if you have a dark half, he should have your same capabilities.

Soule · Post by **Soule** » Sat Jan 05, 2002 7:35 am

Unless of course the Guardian went through the Wall of Lights and became so powerful...

What about the Order Hierophant and gang? They would become equals to the Guardian as well.

Neutronium Dragon · Post by **Neutronium Dragon** » Sat Jan 05, 2002 12:26 pm

The problem with the 'Guardian's homeworld' bit is that they originally planned on an 'Ultima 8, part 2' that would take place there (and where the endgame scene of U8 was supposed to show the Avatar arriving).

They cancelled the idea given the relatively poor showing of U8 and the belief that another away-from-Britannia Ultima wouldn't do very well either. Unfortunately, this also skewed the whole homeworld bit.

Neutronium Dragon

DragonKain · Post by **DragonKain** » Sat Jan 05, 2002 12:44 pm

Does anyone remember what Ultima 8 Part 2 was to be called? I remember seeing screen shots and everything. If i recall correctly, it was almost done, but then dropped due to the overwhelmingly bad sales that Pagan had.

XxVenomxX · Post by **XxVenomxX** » Sat Jan 05, 2002 12:46 pm

The Lost Vale, I believe

Ephemerides Dragon · Post by **Ephemerides Dragon** » Sat Jan 05, 2002 5:02 pm

I didnt know they were going to make a part two to u8. Is it still unfinished somewhere?

XxVenomxX · Post by **XxVenomxX** » Sat Jan 05, 2002 5:22 pm

er, I'm not sure. I know Lost Vale was supposed to be at least an add on to U8, though I'm not sure it was meant to be a sequel. *shrug* That's all I know. :/

MV · Post by MV » Sat Jan 05, 2002 5:57 pm

Lost vale was meant to be an add-on like FOV and SS were.

It's a real shame that they started off with such a great series of games then in the end the corporate of origin really fucked it all up.

Origin as a company really screwed up. I havn't bought anything of theirs since u9. And they used to be THE company as well. Ah the glory days, what really did happen......?

XxVenomxX · Post by **XxVenomxX** » Sat Jan 05, 2002 6:02 pm

Well, Origin doesn't even exist anymore, even though EA felt the need to stick their label on their newest atrocity. Have you seen the box for Ultima Online: Blackthorn's Revenge? My Lord. Don't get me wrong, the artwork in itself it awesome, but... but... *weep*

Max aka Moscow Dragon · Sat Jan 05, 2002 6:03 pm

Any proof and sources supporting your opinion?
Female hierophant is _extremely_ strange, I would say.

Neutronium Dragon · Post by **Neutronium Dragon** » Sat Jan 05, 2002 7:00 pm

The Lost Vale was an expansion for U8. They'd planned on an entirely separate game for U8.5, much like BG and SI were separate games (and each had expansions as well).

Neutronium Dragon

Skutarth · Post by **Skutarth** » Sat Jan 05, 2002 7:28 pm

Avatar: Hmph...
The Avatar shrugs (he must still be at the bar.)
Checks the bar.
Avatar: There he is...
Blacksmith:Wait up, the blacksmith is closed.(And we have to be there anyway) Join me, have a beer.
Avatar:Nah, I'd rather not, not that fawnish ale crap.
Walks the painful trip to the blacksmith shop.
Avatar: I oughta wait for him here.
Waits 6 days, and quits from starvation
Avatar: Where the hell is he?

Where is the blacksmith always in the bar -all day- in Monitor?
I need to buy armor...
:*(

Is this a common bug?

Can it be fixed?

MV · Post by MV » Sat Jan 05, 2002 11:22 pm

Is repeating one's self a common bug? Can it be fixed?

XxVenomxX · Post by **XxVenomxX** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 6:53 am

Apparently it can ;D

Soule · Post by **Soule** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 6:54 am

Order Hierophant is female.. hmm I think you would find this out when you talk to the automaton leader in Silver Seed. He will refer to the hierophant as she, and mention her name as well.

Post by **wjp** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 8:13 am

Commander of the SS fort:

The Order Hierophant is our spiritual leader. She is the Voice of the Order Serpent. I would follow her orders even into the very face of death.

Automaton that you trick into giving you the Hierophant's sceptre:

I have been waiting since all of the citizens of this city left through the Wall of Lights for their new world. Since that time I have been carefully attending thy belongings...
Pardon. I mean, the Hierophant's belongings. Before he led the people through the Wall of Lights, he gave me an item of extreme importance, the Serpent Sceptre. I have been guarding it for centuries now.

So, apparently there was once a female Order Hierophant, but the last one was male.

suraimu · Post by **suraimu** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 8:22 am

That doesn't really make much sense if you think about it.

Thomas Decker · Post by **Thomas Decker** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 9:09 am

Why was the last Order Hierophant male? Because you were playing a male Avatar?
I was playing a female one. Can't recall if the automaton said "she" instead, however, his batteries were quite low, you know...

Post by **wjp** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 9:12 am

This was text straight from the usecode. There's nothing different for male/female avatars in those snippets. (Otherwise the he/she would've been left out and filled in later)

Soule · Post by **Soule** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 9:25 am

Hmm... maybe Origin mixed it up? Because I had always thought that the female hierophant led the followers through the Wall of Lights. Maybe I wasn't careful or meticulous enough.

So could the Guardian be the Order hierophant now? Or one of the followers. I think this line of plot would link better with past Ultimas rather than the lame explanation of his origin in U9. It could explain the origin of the Titans as well.

Thomas Decker · Post by **Thomas Decker** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 9:43 am

The OH was female. The automaton was buggy. After all, he gave the sceptre to the first person he met.

Max aka Moscow Dragon · Sun Jan 06, 2002 4:15 pm

Isstanar refers only to some female knight - the Avenger - and do not say she is the OH.

But yes, his vice (the human) says on OH as "she".

And what about the books in Spinebreaker? What about Sethys? What about automatons guarding the bane jail? Will they refer on OH as "she"?

Thomas Decker · Post by **Thomas Decker** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 11:46 pm

IIRC,

- "the Avenger" a name/title of the Order Hierophant she added to her name after the Great Hierophant of Balance was killed. Before that she was called differently (the ???, and before that the ???)
- Spinebreaker - gender-neutral?
- Sethys - doesn't talk about OH, only about CH and some Master which attacked the temple
- Automatons -???

Soule · Post by **Soule** » Mon Jan 07, 2002 8:16 am

Did Order win because they had a female for their leader? haha just a joke..

I know they won because they had automatons. But anyone can update on their origin/creation?

CHaos tried their best with a monster...heh

Max aka Moscow Dragon · Mon Jan 07, 2002 6:11 pm

I surely saw the reference to the OH as "he".

Female _hierophant_ is really extraordinary.
Female warrior (Joan d'Arc) or even queen (Catherine II was a great ruler, so was Elizabeth I or Greek empress Irina) is not so extraordinary, but _female hierophant_?

Especiall _Order_ one - in the SI's chaos/order system, females are surely the chaotic side while males are order one. They are more emotional and less disciplined.

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Mon Jan 07, 2002 8:42 pm

Some would say that females are more emotional and less disciplined...

suraimu · Post by **suraimu** » Tue Jan 08, 2002 1:45 am

I don't know about less disciplined, but women sure as hell are more
emotional.

Soule · Post by **Soule** » Tue Jan 08, 2002 8:55 pm

Play the SIlver Seed again. Then you will see the reference to the OH as "she". At some point in the game, you shlould get her name as well..(starts with Ss).

Maybe this could be a good way to start a Ultima 7 part 3? AFter all, after the avatar left, the companions are still around in Serpent Isle, this could be a link for them to get back to Britannia.

suraimu · Post by **suraimu** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 2:37 pm

Maybe the Order Heirophant was a transvestite.

Soule · Post by **Soule** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 10:02 pm

Yeah since we can't tell whether the Guardian is Male or Female as well...

If he is male, then how do u explain in U7 when u play female avatar. And u cant see his 'brother' even though he is naked

Post by **Colourless** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 5:54 am

Bah, you people... there could be a really good reason why the OH might be female.

Of course one would think that the OH would be the least emotional and most disiplined person. However this is no reason why a female can't be the OH. If females are "more emotional and less disciplined" then males, the effort that a female would need to give so she could become the OH would be much greater than a male. If a female and a male were going for the job, you would think that the person who has done more, would get it, no?

I hope all that made sense.

-Colourless Dragon

Egwene Sedai · Post by **Egwene Sedai** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 7:34 am

Some one post alot earler in this forum that the war of imbalence started before Ultima 3, but it would have been just before that, because the war of imbalence started when Exodus removed the Great Earth Serpent from the Void. The guardian did not have a hand in the war of imbalence, but unless he has the ability to send people back in time, he must have existed back then. Why else would he have lackies there? But how did he know about you back then, and if he could travel in time, why didn't he just use time travel to conquer the universe before the existance of the Avatar. OH HOW I HATE TIME TRAVEL!

I don't think the OH and her followers accended. Remeber, you didn't accend when you entered the void for the first time. Where they went, who knows. They may still be stuck in the void. I wonder if people age in the void.

Post by **artaxerxes** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 7:44 am

that's why I think time travel does not and will not exist, otherwise we would see around us people from the future.

I think you can slow time (einstein's general theory of relativity) but you can't slow it so much that it goes backwards.

Artaxrerxes

SB-X · Post by **SB-X** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 7:50 am

You think time travel does not and will not exist because you think we would see around us people from the future, or because of the same reasons Egwene Sedai HATES it?

Kurt · Post by **Kurt** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 8:00 am

Any plot that has anything to do with Time Travel has millions of loopholes in it... take the Terminator for example:

John Connor sends Kyle Reese back to 1984 from 2027 so he could impregnate Sarah Connor, John's mother, with John. Well, how the hell did John send Kyle back when he hadn't even been conceived? Surely since Kyle went back in time and had sex with Sarah, John must have mysteriously appeared from nowhere because Kyle altered the course of time. But since John could not have existed, how did he tell Kyle to go back in time, and how did Kyle get a photo of Sarah? ARGH!

I heard an interesting concept about time in Ultima though. The theory is that time in Pagan runs backwards to the time in Britannia. Remember Arcadion showing up in Pagan? He didn't recognise the Avatar, and had no memory of the Black Sword being forged. So unless his memory had been completely wiped when he left Serpent Isle (which seems unlikely for an immortal daemon), it must have never occured in Pagan Time - which is running reverse to Britannia/Serpent Isle.

Also does anyone know the ratio of Earth Time:Britannia Time? Because from Ultima I - IX it must be at least 500 Britannian years, yet nobody gets old except LB and Geoffrey. And Shamino is supposed to have come from Serpent Isle. How come he is still young - I never understood this. Is he immortal or did he come from Earth THEN go to Serpent Isle?
Also, Geoffrey is supposed to have been in Britannia right from being a very young boy (if you've ever read the fables of Virtue on the U9 website, you'll know about this). Did his parents miss him when he left Earth, or was he an orphan. Or did his whole family come, because in the fable he has a sister. Or is he really a 500 year old Britannian? Who knows?!

Post by **Dominus** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 8:23 am

with time travel it is all depend on how you look at time. There have been many nice thoughts of that introduced.
If you imagine time like a river you are going to run into trouble eventually. Another theory is that time exists on the same level.
Another one is that time branches off with each decision.

There was a funny small comic story:
a man got shot in a shoplift that turned into a firefight with police.
Then years in the future time travel got invented but kept secret. A descendant of that man shot gets his hand on the machine, travels back in time and shoots the thief right before entering the shop. The man was saved.
Then some crime lords in the future travel back and help the thief (for whatever reason).
Then even further in the time the plice force sends a unit back in time to kill the gangsters.
Even further in the future time travel is free to use and some people decide that this event would be something worthwhile to watch first hand.
They of course get killed in the shooting as they put themselves in a very uncomfortable spot.
The funny thing was that the man I mentioned in the beginning sometimes gets killed and sometimes doesn't. One of them remembers all these branches and is in a madhouse (remembering being shot, being saved, being shot can surely confuse one)....

Post by **artaxerxes** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 8:38 am

I think time travel does not and will not exist because I think we would see around us people from the future.

Artaxerxes

Egwene Sedai · Post by **Egwene Sedai** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 8:44 am

Kurt, the orgins of Shamino are blured, according to Ultima 5 material, he pre dates LB, but I am pretty sure he is from earth. The thing about the Serpent Isle is that they used to be part of Sosaria(now Britannia) but after a hero, The Hero who would become the Avatar, defeated Mondain, a large number of land just up and dispeared from the surface of Sosaria, which is to say that they were teleported to their own dimensions. Of the lands that included Shamino's Kingdom and the Lands of Danger, formed SI, which is why Shamino is so suprised when he see's the castle, because he thought it, his lands, and his wife, were lost forever when they up and dispeared after Mondains defeate.

The History of the SI can be devided into four eras.

Era 1 Seperation From Sosaria to the Begining of the Orphidean era. This includes the fall of Shamino's Kingdom(with out him they were lost), The rift forming into the Dream world at Gorlab, and the fall of the king who lived in the castle that the Banes held up in.

Era 2 Orphidean Era, this era ends at the end of the war of imbalence, caused by Exodus removing the Great Earth Serpent from the Void.

Era 3 Time Unknown between Fall of Orphideans and the Arrival of Settlers from Britannia.

Era 4 Three Cities Era(Monitor, Fawn, Moonshade)

As to the ratio of Britannia's years to Earth, I believe it was six months between Ultima 5 and 6, but was around 50 years in Britannia. As for the ratio between SI time and Earth, well it has to be high, because time gose much faster SI then on Britannia, and time goses faster then time in Britannia