OT: Ultima 8 causes much sorrow

[Macaw]

I decided to play through ultima 8.

I was wandering the labyrinth to reach Lithos for roughly 6 hours, eventualy I went completely insane and looked at a FAQ, and found that the way I had to go was in that very, very thin path in that corridor that leads to the mountain king room and a chest.

There is no way I could imagine more than about 10% of people finding that path without a FAQ. I was backtracking looking for passages I might have missed and trying to unlock those locked doors but all along it was just a tiny thin path that I didnt see and wouldnt have found unless I spend another 3 hours checking all the walls.

So my question is, has anyone finished Ultima 8 without using a FAQ at all? And has anyone else here gone insane while playing ultima 8? Never have I experianced such enormous, torturous, straining dungeons in a game before.

[Tristan de Inés]

I remember also getting a little frustrated in the catacombs. It all looks the same and you don`t have any real clues on which way to go or what to do.

But I believe the catacombs are as frustrating as it gets in U8. After that, no more huge laberynths to navigate.

[Tristan de Inés]

I really hope you have the patched version though (where you always jump the same distance away), otherwise you have to play super mario.

[Soule]

Precisely why I hate U8!

Its just caves and caves and caves.. and a lot of them... it's not even fun!

[SB-X]

> So my question is, has anyone finished Ultima 8 without using a FAQ at all?

Someone had finish the game to write the FAQ.

I havn't even played it yet.

[Macaw]

> Someone had finish the game to write the FAQ.

Unless of course that person who wrote the FAQ got help from a friend or someone on how to get past a certain area... hehe

[Gradilla Dragon_]

In the time I played U8, most people in my country didn't even imagine something like the Internet existed. Only scientific research centers had access to it, and its use was reserved for researchers, not technical nor administrative staff.

I remember when I played U8, I didn't meet Mythran until I was well ahead in the Theurgist quest. I also spent a lot of time on the Zealan Shrine part, in that puzzle where you step on three platforms to build a staircase.

The part I spent most time in was also the hall of the mountain king.

[Andrea B Previtera]

I finished ultima 8 almost randomly. I rarely figured out something because actually the whole plot splits into two kinds of paths: 1) "choose-your-adventure" style, everything is told to you and you just have to go from point A to point B 2) cryptic hints and endless labyrinths. When I encountered a portion of the game which was of the second kind, I just tried to enjoy the creepy atmosphere aimlessly wandering here and there. Sooner or later the plot found me.

Still better than Ultima IX, where dungeons are a single intestine-like corridor, the plot revolves around getting an object from Bob and bringing it to Bob's father, and there are no titans - just goblins, goblins and more goblins.

[Soule]

The story isn't quite coherent in U8. The dialouge were terrible.

It's the worst Ultima game...

[Watt]

I ended up getting the stategy guide when I got stuck on finding the necromancer's dagger Mordea took.

After that point, I didn't really need the guides. The game is actually fairly linear once if you talk to the right people.

U7-BG, however - well, I got lost so bad I never got anywhere the first time I played. I'm sure without the online guides, I never would have beaten BG.

[drcode]

I used a walkthough constantly in U8. The game had a lot of good things about it (like the magic system), but there was too much wandering though endless corridors.

[J3RK]

The first time I beat it, I did it alone, and really didn't have too much trouble at all. There was a bit of backtracking here or there, trying to figure out which way to go, but it wasn't THAT bad. That was even before the patch ever existed, so I had to *gasp* do all my own jumping. (oh no!) I mean, I can see why it would annoy some people, but if you can't manage to hop onto a couple of platforms... :S

Anyway, U7 and U8 are my favorites from the series. The next time I played U8 I used the cheats, and explored as much as I could. I ended up finding all kinds of places I never went the first time. The game is cool, whether the total Ultima-heads like it or not. It's atmospheric. Yes, it's a little different, but story overall (even with it's holes here and there) is a good one. I like the dark, forboding nature of the game too.

As many people as there are that don't like it, there are those who do, and I feel lucky that I can A. appreciate something even if it's somewhat of a departure, and B. that enough people either feel the same, or are just crazy enough to work on a project like Pentagram.

Over the years, I tried to get into the earlier Ultimas. Quite a few times actually. Then I played Pagan, and instantly liked it. I consider it my Ultima primer, because after I played it, I immediately took to the 7 series, and then 6. (kinda played backwards.) I probably never would have played the rest of the series had it not been for Pagan.

I have very mixed feelings about Ascension however. On one had it's a fun game, and has some cool elements. On the other, it's not really what I'd consider finished, and some of the characters annoy the hell out of me. It still has some very atmospheric moments, and some nice locations to explore. Would have been cool if it had been properly polished.

[DirtyHairy]

I also finished U8 before the patch was issued without a walkthrough - I didn't find it terribly difficult, although I would have loved pentagrams minimap feature

[Wizardry Dragon]

Ultima VIII isn't terribly difficult, I found, its just confusing at points. Repetitive map design made it fairly hard to navigate at points. And the goddamn jumping puzzles! I don't know how many times I jumped to my death trying to get to Stratos.

~ Wizardry Dragon

[Tristan de Inés]

quote J3RK:
"The first time I beat it, I did it alone, and really didn't have too much trouble at all. There was a bit of backtracking here or there, trying to figure out which way to go, but it wasn't THAT bad. That was even before the patch ever existed, so I had to *gasp* do all my own jumping. (oh no!) I mean, I can see why it would annoy some people, but if you can't manage to hop onto a couple of platforms... :S"

I`m sure you`re the most ultimate Ultima-player around, but it still wasn't quite a stroll in the park as you put it. The jumping in U8 before the patch was a pain, because even though the cursor was on a "solid spot" where you wanted to jump, the Avatar would then sometimes float around that spot and eventually drop into the water, causing yet another reload with the endless U8 loadtimes, then try positioning the cursor a few pixels further north, *splash* damn, again..... And then there where the moving ones too...
But yes, eventually you would learn the exact place to position the cursor for every individual platform.

Finding Mythran who directs you to the Necromancers to get you going in the first place, isnt the most easy and intuitive thing to do either, and, as already mentioned several times, the huge endless catacombs wherent exactly easy to navigate. You must understand, not everyone has your l33t skillz...

(sorry, can`t spare the sarcasm)

But I still agree with you that Pagan is a very atmospheric game and despite the frustrations sometimes, I still liked it and enjoyed it alot too. From a storytelling standpoint, I think it was even the most creative Ultima of all.

[Daemongar]

Yeah - I finished U8 pre patch - and almost lost my mind. Getting to the titan of Air - and the moving platforms - and making it to Mythran - all without a good jumping system? And then at the end - you had to jump all over again to the Titan of Air?! AUGH!

Anyone who acts like the jumping was a walk in the park is just being a nitwit. That was coronary inducing - but - Origin did have a good BBS with forums and whatnot - where I eventually got the patch and some tips.

The jumping combined with the catacombs where walking along you'd fall to your death, and the Pyros area trying to cast spells ... oy.

Not for the timid...

[Neutronium Dragon]

It *could've* been atmospheric.

But the constant, frustrated fury-inducing intrusion of "oops-yer-dead" collapsing floors, jumping puzzles, and the Avatar flopping around like a rag doll because he got a paper cut (at least pre-patch) utterly wrecked the immersion that it might otherwise have had.

Neutronium Dragon

[Dangus]

Ultima 8 was HORRIBLE. To this day I really think of Ultima Underworld 2 and Serpent Isle as the last games in the Ultima series. Basically in Pagan you screw up an entire world just so you can get back home. It's totally contrary to the nature of the Avatar in all the previous games. I actually felt bad when I trapped the titan of air, as that titan actually was doing good things for the world. For that matter, the titan of earth wasn't so bad either.

It has good ideas for the magic systems, some of the most creative I've ever seen, but ultimately the repetitive nature of the game, and the horrible dialogue, horrible plot, and the fact that there was only one real city, and maybe 3 settlements in the whole world, just totally killed the game for me.

Ultima 9..... um.... what can be said for a game that horrible? It screwed up pretty much everything good about the Ultima series. It wasn't innovative on ANY level. The engine sucked, the combat sucked, the NPCs sucked, the dialog sucked, and the fact that you were given all sorts of loot and no damn way to sell any of it was really stupid. Why give the player gems all the time and not give them anywhere to sell them? Then, once they sell them, none of the shops really sell anything worth buying anyway! The damn weapons shop in Britain, capitol of the friggin world, only sold LEATHER! Yeah.... I think I'd rather stab myself in the eyes with a spork than experience that horrible excuse for a game. I feel betrayed by it, and I know Richard Garriot does too. I know damn well that he didn't want to even release Ultima 8 as unfinished as it was, and Ultima 9 was the last straw. Even Daggerfall, which is older, feels more high tech and polished on so many levels.

[Gradilla Dragon_]

Dangus, regarding what the Avatar did in Pagan, it depends on how you understand it. I read the U8 manuals and understood that the titans screwed up the world and kept it that way.

By defeating the titans at the end of U8, the Avatar frees the world of Pagan from the opression of the titans, thus the winds would run free, the seas wouldn't be so dangerous, the hordes of undead would diminish and the volcano would calm. If you fail to figure that out, then you need to read the U8 manual carefully.

All the undead roaming around are Lithos' work. All sea monsters were created by Hydros. The eternal twilight effect on Pagan is caused by Stratos. The demons are the work of Pyros. The Avatar is making a favor to the people of Pagan by destroying the four titans.

[Wizardry Dragon]

Eh, like you said Gradilla, it depends on how you take it. I hardly think damning a world to get home is very Avatar-ish, the fact that it freed the world was a collateral thing ^_~

~ Wizardry Dragon

[Dangus]

While I think the original intent, and indeed the suggestions of the manual and cluebook would point to the avatar as a hero saving the world, the way it all panned out in the end certainly did not appear that way at all. I think a lot of that was due to the fact that the game was so rushed. Stopping Hydros really made a lot of sense, especially out of all of them Hydros was by far the most out of control. Stratos, on the other hand, was a source of healing power and the followers of stratos were good people. It just *felt* wrong.

Suddenly binding all those elemental titans had totally unpredictable consequences. What if Lithos was really the only thing holding the sea back regardless of the actions of Hydros? What if Stratos was really protecting the people of Pagan from an overly harsh sun? The whole ecology of Pagan had become dependant upon low light levels, suddenly clearing the skies would mean the death of al plant life remaining on the planet. Even with rare stockpiles of seeds to repopulate some of the plants, the planet's biology would clearly be in huge trouble.

Also, what of the people who worshipped the titans? They're suddenly left with no Gods, their magic systems are shattered, and now you've killed their ecosystem?! I really saw very little hope for Pagan as I doomed them in my selfish quest to get back home. We clearly saw in Underworld 2 that there were other ways for a player to move between the planes. The Avatar certainly chose the hard way, not to mention the careless one. It would have been much more interesting if the Avatar could have had the option to either trap, or gain the assistance of, each of the titans. It would have made for a more interesting plot. Imagine allying yourself with Hydros and taking down Pyros to get what you need, or maybe ally with Lithos and Stratos and trap Hydros and Pyros(what I probably would have done).

The way it played out felt too much like the Avatar was being herded down a plotline laid out specifically for him to overcome, rather than a more dynamic situation with some possibilities.

[wintermute_turing_ai]

Just thought I'd chime in, too.

Back to the OP, the first time I played U8 - a few months after it was initially released - also was one of the first times I spent any amount of time poking around the internet. I had to go online because none of the local BBS's had a FAQ for U8, and I couldn't find the hintbook locally. I ended up stumbling into UDIC, and registering myself - then eventually started hanging around #ultima on EFnet swapping hints with other folks (and bitching about the magic system with the acolytes in Daemon's Crag). The rest is history I suppose.

Funny though - U8 actually introduced me to the Net, just simply cuz it was so damned difficult back then.

[ShaggyMoose]

I never really understood the hate for this game. I think it was mostly disappointment after the series peaked at U7. Generally I found Pagan to be an interesting, if restrictive place to explore and the magic system was innovative for the time. Having more control over the combat was mostly a welcome change as well. No more leaving an unnoticed and unconcious Spark in a dungeon somewhere...

Bear in mind I never played the game pre-patch, and so avoided many of the frustrations of the early adopters. I also pity anyone who tried to play this on the recommended DX2-66...

Curiously, one of the things I missed most in Pagan was the ragdoll. It seems that I treat RPGs as dress-ups

Not having a party was kind of depressing too.

[Neutronium Dragon]

Actually, a DX2-66 ran it quite well as long as you had enough memory. The real sticking point was that a lot of people still got their DX2-66s with only 4 megs of ram at that point, and that just wasn't enough for U8. 8 megs was much better, but even then it pinched a bit.

Running it on a DX2-66 with 32 megs of ram (and thus a decent sized smartdisk) gave no speed-related problems at all.

Neutronium Dragon

[Macaw]

But ultima 8 did have a ragdoll....


Anyway, I feel I must point out I didnt not create this topic as flaming Ultima 8. I still feel the gameworld is incredibly interesting, and despite how annoying the dungeons are there is still an incredible atmosphere of being lost by yourself deep, deep down in an enormous dungeon with seemingly no end in sight. That combined with the graphics and music really does make ultima 8 a great change of pace and style for the ultima series, and at times almost feels like some kind of bizarre horror game.

[Dangus]

Oh don't get me wrong.... as a stand-alone game it was okay in a sense. I really do think it has some incredibly innovative features for it's time. The combat and magic systems, not to mention the ability to pull yourself up over a ledge was incredible relative to any previous games(except for the Underworld games which in my opinion still have yet to be beat in some regards). Even as a stand-alone the ending really bothered me, and the endless catacombs definitely made it feel EXTREMELY unfinished. It was sad too because I felt such a sense of potential from that game. It really had so much going for it, and when I first started playing it I was blown away by how great it looked and how neat some of the changes from the old series were...

Honestly I'd love to see U8 redesigned using Exult. Sure we'd lose the way better graphics and whatnot, but an Ultima 8 with a plot that actually feels finished? That would be great. If I had any programming ability whatsoever, or the time to do it, I would.

[J3RK]

I fell off the platforms a few times. I also floated around in the air before plummeting into water or lava, but those things didn't detract from the experience for me. I guess after all the action games that I also play, I just felt right at home. Coming from a C64/Amiga background, the word frustrating didn't even pop into my head during U8. Try playing some Psygnosis games, where if you do ONE wrong thing, the rest of the game is unreachable. To me the game was much greater as a whole than any of its faults. The graphics were beautiful, if a bit repetitive, but think of it this way: You're confined to a single island. How much variation are you expecting on one island and its cave systems? I also agree with the Avatar being a hero rather than damning Pagan. The place was damned several times over by the early people there. Even the Stratos thing wasn't all that bad. Yes, the theurgists lost their otherworldly healing powers, but there is also a lot less left over to cause a need to be healed. Less undead, less oceanic problems, less flaming death from above. They could just go on living like any other world without those titans. One less tyranical ruler as well. They may have lost some of their elemental powers, but is that such a bad thing? That's still not to say that all forms of magic left them either. The ether is obviously still intact. Also, the three previous gods encourage the avatar to do this. I don't think they'd willingly destroy the people of their land. I also think that the threat of the Guardian is a little more pressing than whether one "seemingly" good titan isn't around anymore.

[Wizardry Dragon]

Well, if you believe Ultima IX, the Guardian wasn't all that hard to take down now, was he?

Don't start me on Ultima IX though. Ultima VIII was fun after the patch, because despite the design flaws there was an interesting story and magic system going. Ultima IX was just ... ugh.

[Neutronium Dragon]

Didn't the old leader of the Theurges, dying after Stratos's power was weakened when you nabbed the Air relic, actually say (roughly) that he thought the change would ultimately be a good thing even though he was going to kick the bucket because of it?

Neutronium Dragon

[Tristan de Inés]

Now, this is speculation, but the plot in U8 seems rather consistent with the virtues.

Defeating Pyros required Valor above all (the dangerous way of reaching the sorcerers and the even more dangerous tests)

Lithos required honor and compassion (honoring the deal the people of Pagan made with Lithos and that Mordea was about to break, and compassion for the plight of the Necromancers)

Hydros required justice and honesty (Beren also being heir to the Tempestry)

And well Stratos, quite evidently, sacrifice (Stratos himself, the people of Pagan for losing their healers and the life of the leader of the Theurgists)

I`m not sure about spirituality and humility. Maybe someone else can distribute them evenly...

[Tristan de Inés]

I`d go with assigning spirituality to Pyros (since by that time so far in the game the Avatar has mastered all other virtues and is commited to do what must be done) and humility to Stratos (if only because Argentrock Isle reminds me so much of a Tibetan village high up in the mountains
So the "quest" of every Titan is about two virtues and that explains "killing" stratos.

[J3RK]

Yeah, Ultima IX had a LOT of faults, but for some reason or other I still had a lot of fun playing it. It has annoying characters, disconnected, tossed together story, MANY inaccuracies and inconsistencies with the previous games, and a very buggy engine, but I still thought it was fun. I just enjoy exploring Origin's worlds I guess. They just contain a lot of detail, a lot of cool places, old ruins, places that make you wonder "what happened here?" etc. I actually had tons of fun exploring the rather large amount of areas that had nothing to do with the plot. The northern areas, etc. I think it's cool when there is more to a game world than you actually have to go to. As far as being a part of the series though, yes, I'd question that.

[ShaggyMoose]

I agree completely with J3RK. For me, a good 50% of the enjoyment from the Ultima series is exploration. Mysterious ruins, enigmatic NPC's and confusing devices are par for the course. If I don't ask the all important "what happened here" here question at least a few times, the designers need a rethink. UIX nailed this one just about perfectly, while simultaneously messing up nearly everything else

[Soule]

I just had to resurrect this old thread...

As I have said it 3 years ago, U8 is horrilbe, and I think it still is, even though I have replayed it 3-4 times. I ran it on a 386 then and it was horribly slow + I played the unpatched version so I kept dropping into the water. I tried to be creative and moved the bigger platforms around using hackmover but it didn't work. I tried to hackmove the avatar onto the platforms but it didn't work as well either. Through countless frustrating attempts, I managed to complete the game just to see the ending

After LB released the patch, I replayed the game, and managed to explore more of the game. But it was still not enjoyable, like what everybody said, it was just countless and countless of catacombs, monsters and fighting. No interactions, no fun, just slashing. I remember I kept talking to the Tavern girl and Devon and hoped there would be something interesting but unfortunately not!

And I could never understand how the spellbinding worked. Only when I am lucky, the spell would turn out right. Even Bane/Vardion’s clues were vague, but at least it helped a little. At the end, you needed to put all the blackrock fragments in the right place on the pentagram, and I could never get it to work. It was frustrating! I remember vaguely that the Avatar would give clues for the placement at the end...did he?

I am still wondering whether Pentagram for U8 is even worth it. Would I replay U8 again? I guess not...

[Gunnar]

pentagram would also be suited for both Crusader games. So in that sense it might still be worth finishing the engine

[alagner]

Both Crusaders used the same engine as U8? Never knew that, imho these games look way better than U8

[Andrew_LB]

I was one of the new people who was able to beat the game without an FAQ to guide me. But I will say that I had a horrible time passing certain areas like the catacombs you go through on the way to the mountain king.

I also had a horrible time getting the whole system of jumping in areas where there are platforms in the water that rise up and down.

I may play through it again, but I personally don't consider Ultima 8 a great game.... and nowheres near the greatness that is Ultima VII (and all the add-ons).

[Andrew LB]

I purchased U8 the first week it was available before they removed the pentagram from the original box art (or so i was told), and did indeed complete the game without any outside help or for the patch that was later released.

I have never played it through other than that one time because it was not even remotely as good as previous Ultima's.... heck.... the game was so different from the amazing U7 that I hardly even looked at it as an Ultima game.

[Zombie Chris]

As much as i enjoyed ultima 8, the complete change from ultima 7 and the VERY linear progress of the game deeply upset me, im very protective of the ultima series and to see something so different from what i still consider the greatest game ever ( ultima 7 ) i was shocked

I needed to use a FAQ to finish the game too, getting stuck in exactly the same place you did and once more a little later,

Dont get me wrong, i like ultima 8 but it doesnt seem to fit into the ultima series as a game, and please dont get me started on ultima 9

[Anthony]

Please oh please Richard Garriot get your teams together and make another Ultima game to compensate for the last 2 ultima game.(ultima 8 and ultima 9) I am a huge fan of ultima games I've grown up with them and I can't live with out them. please take your time and make one more similar to u7 series before we get old and die. Long live Exult.

[DarkAvatar]

as much as anybody would want that wouldn't be possible.. EA owns the rights to ultima.. and they killed 10.. even though 10 wouldn't have been much better... from the previews it looks like it would have been a 3rd person perspective of UO...

[alagner]

Don't kill me for resurrecting this offtopic thread, but I've just started playing Pagan and heck... I'm a fan of Ultima, I like both 7's, I even like the buggy 9, I'm also planning to play 6, 4 and 5 via Lazarus (which I have all tried for a short while and they seem at least ok). But 8th part keeps disappointing me: completely unbalanced and boring fighting (and way too much of it), endless catacombs and caves, inventory graphics completely screwed up. And, you may call me a cheater now and find me Guilty as Beren does , but getting through all those dungeons is pain in the neck. If they were constructed like in 7, e.g. Despise - it would be great - but in such form I'm just blessing the default cheat mode in Pentagram allowing me to pass through walls and stuff. W/o it I would probably throw the computer out of the window killing some passer-by. And however I've never supported cheating - I have to admit that this time it's most useful.

I understand rushing the release by the EA, but even so - I completely dislike the games interface, fighting, and character development. It does have a nice plot to me, but in my opinion it's mechanics make it difficult to play. However strange it may seem, I think that remaking it completely using Diablo or more Diablo-like engine (or maybe adding its features to Pentagram if possible) could make it way better,. Simply because of such stuff like belt, "quick-spell", sorted backpack etc.

[Anon]

I treat U8 like I do the Grand Theft Auto games. Completely ignore the story and purposely screw up as many things as possible. I remember making it into the sorcerers enclave prematurely by stacking various objects carefully, making a bridge/staircase going across the lava.
I also had a lot of fun with oil flasks and fire gems. Light one up next to an NPC and run like hell. This was especially effective for pissing off Mordrea without dying. I remember finding ways to knock her into water (kills her) without cheating, too.

Of course, this all after playing the game properly for the first time, basically for the storyline.

[djolk]

I think the hack mover is one of the funnest things in the world.

[Ashish]

U8 Was my first ever Ultima and in fact one of the first computer games my bro and I bought. I still remember how amazed we were at how much space the game took on our hardrive (80 Mb i think) and the fact that it spawned about 8 disks! The intro cutscenes were amazing and the graphics were incredible (except the water---i still remember thinking the water looked stupid). Well I could keep this rant going for a long time. After I'm done playing U7 (my first time!) I hope to try to get U8 to work and give it a go.

[HY]

^ The water looks pretty cool >.>

[icurafu]

I liked the water too. That's one thing that always amazed me about Ultima games. 7,8 and 9.

8 had nice looking spikes in the water and an awesome waterful effect for the time.

7 actaully showed the water come in and out.

9 also had waves that had real wave transforms. It was very advanced at the time.

[Frank]

I played U8 when it first came out, with the pentagram and without the patch. I only had two real problems other then the jumping issue that every one had a problem with. One, load times where too long. It took near 10-15 minutes to load/save every time I died or made a jump. The second was I never finished the game on my first try. I hit a bug with I tried to summon Pyros, I don't know what was wrong but I figured that my save was corrupted, so I started over.

Now onto U9. while the engine was not finished, it DID push the envelope. The atmospheric effects and ragdoll physics stood out above every thing else that was out at the time. Wind would knock over stuff, and when you hit something it would move realistically. U9 was not finished and the story was changed from it original conception, still it was innovative for the time.

Frank

[GuJiaXian]

Speaking of Ultima 8, anyone know what's going on (specifically) with Pentagram? I know their binaries are updated now and then (I think the newest is only a few days old), but the link to their change log is broken, and like certain other Ultima engine sites (coughcough), there are a surprising lack of front-page news updates. Heck, Pentagram doesn't even have forums or anything, so I honestly don't even know how playable/"complete" the engine is.

[Malignant Manor]

You can download the changelog for Pentagram from Sourceforge.