[OT] Answer to many U9 inconsistencies

suraimu · Post by **suraimu** » Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:05 pm

The reason the Avatar has a map is obvious....

....it came with the game.

Kurt · Post by **Kurt** » Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:15 pm

that's true, exactly why is the Avatar playing Ultima 7 anyway? it hadn't even been finished!

This reminds me of that scene in Spaceballs where the bad guys rent the movie so they can find out where the good guys are hiding, even though the film hasn't even been finished!
Instant marketing, the product is on the shelf before it's even finished

A bit like lots and lots of commercially released games these days then. None of this stuff with the Guardian would've happened if they'd properly patched Ultima 7 so it just stayed as a picture of trees and a butterfly.

suraimu · Post by **suraimu** » Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:35 pm

Ultima 7 - The toilet paper!

Max aka Moscow Dragon · Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:54 pm

>And active sexuality has never had anything to say about virtues. Virtues
>and moralities are not the same.

Virtues and morality are the same, that's why there is no Virginity among virtues.
Immoral is doing bad to others. Active sexuality has nothing to do with it.

BTW - there is also no virtue of Freedom

)) surely LB's Britannia is more like USSR then the democracy

I once posted a long text of my own (I just had the mood to write one) to *.series which compares the 80ies USSR with the 8 virtues.

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Mon Dec 10, 2001 6:21 pm

Freedom or no, it would not be very COMPASSIONATE to make your captain of the guard do guard duty if he's lost so much blood he has the balance of a drunken sailor, or comes down with pneumonia.

Darkfist Dragon · Post by **Darkfist Dragon** » Tue Dec 11, 2001 12:54 pm

>>Author: Kurt (---.cableinet.co.uk)
Date: 12-10-01 10:17

yes, I do play UO, and the map does change - >Author: Max aka Moscow Dragon (194.226.90.---)
Date: 12-10-01 13:54

Virtues and morality are the same, that's why there is no Virginity among virtues.
Immoral is doing bad to others. Active sexuality has nothing to do with it.<<
Hmm.. thats a way I havent yet though about it..

Kurt · Post by **Kurt** » Tue Dec 11, 2001 1:17 pm

apology accepted

don't worry, i rarely bear grudges, and it's really easy to misinterpret the tone of someone's text on a messageboard.

Steve Wood · Post by **Steve Wood** » Tue Dec 11, 2001 3:29 pm

The vocal stones link doesn't work, or the site is down.

Sol · Post by **Sol** » Tue Dec 11, 2001 4:57 pm

Am I the only one drinking today?
I think not
hehehe

Lets everyone take a trip back to U4
No inconsistencies to worry about

Sol · Post by **Sol** » Tue Dec 11, 2001 4:59 pm

BTW, has anyone tried U4 for Nintendo?
Its an excellent game, very close to the original
check it out

Peace

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Tue Dec 11, 2001 8:45 pm

Actually it's not all that much like the original. The character dialogue appears to be more or less the same (I see a line from Geoffrey that looks like "TO flee from battle shows cowardice!") There are some of the same spells, but many of the spells are different, and the weapons and armor are completely different. The battlesystem is similar, but other than that there are big differences, such as being able to equip both a close-quarters and ranged weapon at once, Serpent's Spine being a cavern where people tell you the story of Mondain, Minax, and Exodus and give you the Scale of Exodus to make the Warrior's Axe for Geoffrey, horses weren't implemented, you have to enter the Abyss alone, etc. The weapons and armor were merely translated to be as close to the original version as possible, but in the Japanese version, the equipment is quite different. The Nintendo version was actually a Dragon-Quest-style remake. (known as Dragon Warrior here in the states)

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Wed Dec 12, 2001 2:31 pm

Let me see what I can remember of the item names.....

Axe- stone axe
+1 axe- magic axe
cloth- cloth clothes
Ring- forest armor
magic cloth- magic clothes
plate- iron armor
+1 chain- magic mail
+1 plate- magic armor
Magic Wand- magic staff
Sword- copper sword
+1 Sword- steel sword
+2 sword- magic sword
Gems- magic jewel/magic ball
key- magic key

CLASS-SPECIFIC ITEMS
+2 axe- warrior's/fighter's axe (fighter, only)
(in Ultima and DND, 'senshi' which translates as warrior or soldier, is the term used for 'fighter' Therefore, you could translate "senshi no ono" as warrior's/soldier's/fighter's axe.)

Flute- flute of sheep
Robe- shepard's robe (both are for the sheperd, only. The robe is a piece of armor, while the flute is an item that works like the sleep spell when used by the sheperd, but doesn't have a high success rate.)

Also, the skeleton key is permanent (and much more expensive)
YOu also cannot have more than 3 people in your party (not including yourself) and if you want to change companions, you go to Castle British to a sort of inn thingy (blatant DQ3-ism)

you'll note that both Geoffrey and Katrina got bonus items for their inability to use magic. I have no idea how much protection the robe offers, but IMO, Geoffrey got better goodies than Katrina did. You can see some blatant Dragon Quest-isms here.

Kurt · Post by **Kurt** » Wed Dec 12, 2001 2:54 pm

The vocal version of stones is hosted on Stratics, which ever since I posted that link has been suffering with terrible bandwidth problems and downtime... heh...

keep trying

Darkfist Dragon · Post by **Darkfist Dragon** » Wed Dec 12, 2001 7:37 pm

Stratics has always been somewhat bad with access.
It happened when they switched servers.

Steve Wood · Post by **Steve Wood** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 10:15 am

Well I did manage to get it started, made it through 1.7 megs then it died. Sigh.

Steve Wood · Post by **Steve Wood** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 10:33 am

Got it

Guys got a nice voice but not quite what I expected, sticks out too much imho (humble) from the music. I always figured stones would be done in a soft voice.

Kurt · Post by **Kurt** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 1:54 pm

what I want to hear is that guy singing to the U9 version of stones, which sounds good - i.e not a horrible midi. I might have to see if I can mix the two properly so it sounds at least reasonable...

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Fri Dec 14, 2001 4:30 pm

Also, why do you need a whistle to communicate with wisps in BG? THe Avatar didn't have any problem communicating normally with them in U6 and UW2....

Lord G · Post by **Lord G** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 1:26 am

Howcome the moogates are working again in U9 and why is the moongate blue (purple actually) when you use the orb of the moons is`nt it supposed to be red?

Kurt · Post by **Kurt** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 1:29 am

they're not working until you fix the shrines.
who knows.

Chris Schumacher · Post by **Chris Schumacher** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 1:49 am

>*How can the blue moongates still exist in BG if the Avatar dug up the moonstones >in U6 and threw them into the
> Vortex Cube?

You can remove objects from the Vortex cube, just click on it. U6 only, obviously.
It was nice that they put them in the shrines in U6 to avoid conflicting with U5...
I remember three of them were down in the Underworld, another next to Blackthorn's castle, and another one right outside of Doom. I think the Britain one was the only
one I left in the upper world.
Also, you can plant one next to LB's telescope.

K.I.L.E.R · Post by **K.I.L.E.R** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 6:11 am

Actually for all you people in Ultima 9 (without any of the non official patches) it does have the full story there.
I read a book in the game that explained how your companions got back and how SI was migrated by Britannians after the Avatar left SI to Pagan.
Near moonglow there is a shack (it's outside of moonglow but not too far) where you can find out about SI.

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 6:16 am

I don't have U9; tell me what it says..!!

Kennedy · Post by **Kennedy** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 6:34 pm

Remember when you use the plaque or the black sword to bump off LBJ and find his last will and testament saying that he is the father of Nell's kid? Did they ever explain that little bit in U9 like they were 'supposed' to?

XxVenomxX · Post by **XxVenomxX** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 7:04 pm

LBJ was in U7??!! Are there any other secret U.S. presidents in there?

Andy · Post by **Andy** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 7:22 pm

They were also supposed to have the outcome of the Lost Vale (from U8) in U9. The developers mentioned this plot point directly, and I remember it being talked about on Ultima Horrizons. I was afraid they would explain it away with just a text explanation. Has anyone found any evidence of the Lost Vale in U9?

...No other evidense of Presidents that I can see..., but there is of course the Star Trek crew in U7. What more could you need?

Andy a.k.a. Grimlock Dragon

GeniusLoci · Post by **GeniusLoci** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 11:05 pm

They cut out the Lost Vale stuff when they changed the origin of the Guardian.
The Guardian was, according to some stuff RG said at various conventions*, the
seventh Zealan deity, who used the Titans to get rid of the competition.
I think you were supposed to learn this in Lost Vale, since we know for a fact that
it involved freeing the three lower pantheon deities (joy, fear, and grief).

But RG also said (in the interview at the end of "The Avatar Adventures") that it
was possible that the Guardian was just a weak member of a race, and that race
was the true threat. It might simply be that the Zealans might've ended up being
the enemies...

(* - or so I've heard, this doesn't exactly fit with the assumption that the Avatar went
to the Guardian's homeworld at the end of U8, since he was already there; but it
could have very well been that the Avatar got sucked into the Lost Vale by mistake).

Max aka Moscow Dragon · Sun Dec 16, 2001 1:09 am

I also cannot understand:

- in UW2, the Guardian's Mors Gotha was a anti-Avatar
- in U9, the _Guardian himself_ is an anti-Avatar

Looks like U9 contradicts the previous Ultimas a lot.

GeniusLoci · Post by **GeniusLoci** » Sun Dec 16, 2001 8:17 am

Re: Mors Gotha
Not simply "a", "THE" anti-Avatar. I was hoping more references to her would
pop up, but no dice...
This also makes it pretty clear that the Guardian was the Anti-Lord British...

Max aka Moscow Dragon · Sun Dec 16, 2001 9:26 am

Blackthorn was anti-LB - am I wrong?

GeniusLoci · Post by **GeniusLoci** » Sun Dec 16, 2001 10:05 am

Yeah, maybe...
That's also something that bothered me. Blackthorn finally comes back... as a cookie
cutter villian. A lot of people wanted to see him again because they liked the character and they wanted him to have a chance to redeem himself... No such luck.
If memory serves, Blackthorn was trying to become the second Avatar, and got
very close before the Shadowlords corrupted him... So how the hell did he become
what we saw in U9?!

Lord G · Post by **Lord G** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 3:46 am

In U8 the guardian says that he has destroyed one of the avatars worlds, which one was he taking of Earth or Britania

GeniusLoci · Post by **GeniusLoci** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 4:22 am

To quote:
"You two worlds will be crushed; Britannia first, then Earth."

If you have the speech pack, every time you save the game he taunts you, telling
you the various things he's doing to Britannia, much the same as he does in Ultima Underworld 2.

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 5:13 am

Hawk! Is that the sweet song of lamentation I hear?

Kurt · Post by **Kurt** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 9:59 am

Nystul sends his best, Avatar...

suraimu · Post by **suraimu** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 7:58 pm

I remember something about Lord British's kid being in Ultima 9, although
I forget what it was.

As for Blackthorn, he wasn't ever really an anti-British, it was more
like Blackthorn is to British as Satan is to God in Christianity. Not an
equal opposing force, but rather like a lower fallen evil force.

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 11:51 pm

I saw clips of the Samheyne (sp?) betrayal on Loubet's website. It shows Blackthorn jabbing Raven's left hand with her own dagger, and I'm like "WTF?!?! THat's the worst attempt at a sadistic villian I've ever seen!"

I mean, it's bad enough he has this gentle, kind look in his eyes half the time, but he stabs her LEFT HAND with a dagger?! Come on! I could do better without even trying!

First off, jab her RIGHT HAND, so that she's debilitated, but first, make sure to poison the dagger. Make sure it's a poison that WILL kill her, but only very slowly and in the most unpleasant way. Either that or jab her in the gut. If that doesn't kill her, the peritonitis (a serious, unimaginably painful infection of the abdominal cavity) will. THis will force the Avatar to go on an annoying quest to find the antidote for the poison.

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Tue Dec 18, 2001 2:10 am

Blackthorn was never evil. He was corrupted by the Shadowlords and forced to do their bidding - and it probably happened again with the Guardian. Then again, U9 is shock-full of inconsistensies, so he might've turned into a real bad guy in that game. Oh well.

Kurt · Post by **Kurt** » Tue Dec 18, 2001 3:34 am

Blackthorn, p'ed off at being banished in U5, becomes a baddie by the time U9 rolls around I guess. Remember he has a deal with the Guardian that once the Guardian has destroyed Britannia, he will be king of it. Which is pretty stupid because the Guardian intends to kill everyone. dumbass.
"Blackthorn, you are indeed a fool to want Britannia... once I am finished with it...."

suraimu · Post by **suraimu** » Tue Dec 18, 2001 6:28 am

The Shadowlords corrupted Blackthorn, but there had to be a nugget
of evil inside him in order for him to -be- corrupted. Additionally, nobody
ever said he was -uncorrupted- magically at the end of U5, now did they?

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Tue Dec 18, 2001 8:05 am

Well, of course Blackthorn wasn't perfect before the Shadowlords showed up - but the way I understand it, he was a good man before the 'lords used their dark magics on him.

GeniusLoci · Post by **GeniusLoci** » Tue Dec 18, 2001 9:34 am

Re: Blackthorn becomiung uncorrupt

Yeah, strange how EVERY SINGLE OTHER CITIZEN OF BRITANNIA became uncorrupt*
once the Shadowlords influence was removed. Hell, Gwenno actually attacked me
once when the Shadowlord of Hatred was in town.
The Shadowlords influence was magical, and once they were removed, so was their
influence. Blackthorn was clean when he was banished. He was also the second
most virtuous person in the history of Brittania, so I think he could have recovered.

(* - well, as uncorrupt as these things go).

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Tue Dec 18, 2001 2:19 pm

It's possible he was effected differently. Remember, the townspeople were affected differently than ol' Blackie.

The townspeople were affected only while the Shadowlords were in the towne. Companions were only possessed during battle. Blackthorn was affected/possessed 24/7. Because of the prolongued exposure, it's possible the effects were a bit more premanent.

And yeah, there had to be a pert of him that WANTED to be corrupt for the Shadowlords to be able to do it. Blackthorn is the one and only example in all of Ultima of something actually CORRUPTING a person. All the other times, it's a simple case of possession. This leads me to believe that in order for a magical being to corrupt you, there must be a pert of you willing to be corrupted, much like the way that hypnosis works. Either that or a quite virile seed of evil in the person.

In my U5 fic, I explored this a bit. For instance, the Shadowlords had a much easier time affecting companions with a significant seed of an anti-principle than those who didn't.

Examples: Geoffrey was one of the few companions who was virtually unaffected by the Shadowlord of Cowardice. Howeve,r this was because Geoffrey derived determination and willpower from an intense hatred he bore for the Shadowlord of Cowardice, who, before U5 started, killed several of his friends as well as his brother-in-law.

OTOH, he is one of the most vulnerable to the SHadowlord of Hatred's influence, due to the intense hatred he bears for the Shadowlord of Cowardice and especially Blackthorn's guards stationed at every town of virtue (the guards killed the rest of his friends, and tortured many others, as well as assaulted civilians, and also exiled Geoffrey from Jhelom)

Jaana and Iolo are highly resistant to the Shadowlord of Hatred because of their compassion.

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Tue Dec 18, 2001 4:16 pm

Well, I disagree on that some part Blackthorn wanted to be corrupted or that he was fairly evil to start with - the Shadowlords were extremely powerful and nigh-on immortal as well! A glass sword, an artifact that can destroy nearly all living beings, merely dispersed them for a few moments until they could reform. They simply used a very powerful charm spell on Blackthorn, corrupting him and placing him under their command.

Pan Sola · Post by **Pan Sola** » Tue Dec 18, 2001 4:35 pm

Imagin there's a truck triving down the road.

If it's driving at a very high speed, and you manage to give it a little nudge, you can swing it to aside fairly quickly.

If the truck is moving very slowly, it's much harder to have it run into a tree or a pedistrian on the side walk, or turn on a corner. But it takes longer to reach your destination.

Blackthorn is like a truck driver who's driving at very high speed, trying to catch up with you (the Avatar). The shadowlords thus nudged him a bit so he's no longer running on the path of virtue, and blinded him so he didn't (or couldn't) notice he's running on the wrong street.

People who cared much less about the virtues would be harder to influence, since they are driving slowly (if at all).

My wording can be improved upon, but I hope this analogy conveyed enough of how I view Blackthorn.

suraimu · Post by **suraimu** » Tue Dec 18, 2001 6:57 pm

Y'know, if Blackthorn was good after the Shadowlords left, I highly
doubt LB would have banished him like that. He isn't -that- senile.

Glorious Death Dragon · Wed Dec 19, 2001 1:27 am

>Of coarse all the "original" Britannians may be dead. Don't forget that >Zog (the earliest found true Britannian) cast the armagedon spell. Who >knows if there ARE any "real" Britannians anymore. A shame they didn't >explain that more...

You mean "real" Sosarians as the planet was renamed Brittania after Lord British became leader.

>In my U5 fic, I explored this a bit. For instance, the Shadowlords had a >much easier time affecting companions with a significant seed of an anti->principle than those who didn't.

This fic sounds interesting and has good ideas, is there any website where it can be viewed even if it is not finished?

>Well, of course Blackthorn wasn't perfect before the Shadowlords >showed up - but the way I understand it, he was a good man before >the 'lords used their dark magics on him.

He was good before, after they left he was to (Read MEMOIRS
by Brother Markus, on Monk Isle in Serpent Isle), as The Guardian is more powerful than the Shadowlords (I assume) that is how come Blackthorn works for The Guardian

Max aka Moscow Dragon · Wed Dec 19, 2001 6:47 am

>The Guardian is more powerful than the Shadowlords

Not sure. There was a rumour that Guardian is a creature of Shadowlords.
Shadowlord statues in U9 beginning are surely for some purpose

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Wed Dec 19, 2001 7:04 am

The Shadowlord statues are in Stonegate because Stonegate was formerly their stronghold, in U5.

GeniusLoci · Post by **GeniusLoci** » Wed Dec 19, 2001 10:43 am

> Y'know, if Blackthorn was good after the Shadowlords left, I highly
> doubt LB would have banished him like that. He isn't -that- senile.

Uh, did you ever actually win Ultima 5? Because that is not how it happened.

Lord British offered him a choice, because he knew that Blackthorn's sins were not
his own fault. He could either go and face the judgement of the Great Council,
which was formed of people that he hunted down and (in one case) captured
and tortured, or he could go through the gate he created.
Blackthorn said nothing and went through the gate.

I know that Lord British seems like an oaf sometimes, but this is one instance where
I think he showed a true depth of character.