[OT] Answer to many U9 inconsistencies

Pan Sola · Post by **Pan Sola** » Sun Dec 02, 2001 10:59 pm

If anyone has already thought of the following idea, and posted it, I apologize. I don't go to the various message boards often, so this is a new discovery to me. It occured to me after I replied someone's post about the "bug" at the end of U7.

We wondered why the Avatar started at Earth right?
We wondered why nothing in Pagan got mentioned right? (well, almost nothing).
We wondered why even though the Avatar destroyed the BG, how come the Guardian still showed up right?
We wondered what happened to the Avatar's power as Titan of Ether right?

Well, here's the solution: at the end of U7, the Avatar did NOT distroy the Blackgate, but went back to Earth instead!

The only thing this contradict (that I can think of) is why Durpe is dead, and the part about Pyros, since SI and Pagan would not have happened.

Well, it solved more inconsistencies then it created (-:

And I can explain these two also.
See, after the Avatar returned to Earth through the BG at the end of U7, the Guardian came through, and our campanions retreated. Note, the Avatar didn't intend to run home. The Guardian, with his voice, suprised and tripped the Avatar, who fell into the Black Gate and got stuck back on Earth. At least that's why the Campanions told LB. You may choose to believe it or not. d-:

They wanted to find a way to defeat the Guardian, and followed Batlin to SI. It'll totally demoralize Britannia if everyone found out that Avatar went home. So, LB secretely found someone to masquerade as the Avatar.

Batlin was trying to use the power of the Wall of Light to defeat Guardian, that part is right, and that's what our Companions were trying to acheive too. Alas, they arrived too late to get the weapen that can get rid of the Guardian.

That's why the *Avatar* cannot be sacrificed to bind the Chaos serpent. He's not qualified since he was a substitute Avatar. It's a secrete that they were using a fake Avatar, so Durpe has come up with a cover story and sacrificed himself.

So now the question is, who was that mysterious person who dressed up as the Avatar in SI, and got ditched to Pagan?
Candidate 1 is that fake Avatar in U9. It all makes sense. He's not that virtuous so he did what he did in Pagan (though it's a mystery why he passed all the tests of purity and such in SI. Luck?). And once he became the Titian of Ether and came back to Britannia (end of U8), he was scared out of his wits and didn't confront the Guardian, but continued to pretend to be the Avatar.
Candidate 2 is Hawkwind. This can support why he's so powerful. Durpe's sacrifice would be because of honor (as in original). Doesn't help explain bad things that happen in U8. Once hawkwind became the Titan of Ether and returned to Britannia, he shockingly discovered that he lost his physical form to the ether, and cannot directly confront the Guardian.

I guess I'm still stuck with the Pyros plot inconsistency in U9, but at least I'm not creating new ones!!!!!

any thoughts?

XxVenomxX · Post by **XxVenomxX** » Mon Dec 03, 2001 5:40 am

I prefer to think that Ultima 9 just sucked, story wise. lol

drk · Post by **drk** » Mon Dec 03, 2001 6:41 am

nothing that u said fits anywhere into the stories..

suraimu · Post by **suraimu** » Mon Dec 03, 2001 8:42 am

How about the Avatar sneezed while holding Mondain's gem, and both
happened?

Sol · Post by **Sol** » Mon Dec 03, 2001 6:24 pm

Interesting indeed.
Is that why you get to pick from 6 avatars as opposed to just the sex in the original? hmm
But then again, maybe they had one too many while they were writing up the last 2. It was always a party

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Mon Dec 03, 2001 6:37 pm

Pardon me, I never played through Ultima VIII (I didn't particularly like the gameplay... people complain about U9... sheesh, I think U8 was worse in terms of gameplay), so I don't know what happens at the end.

Does the Avatar go into a moongate to Britannia at the end of U8? Or is it just a moongate to somewhere and he thinks it's Britannia? Could it have been a moongate to Earth instead of Britannia?

Max aka Moscow Dragon · Mon Dec 03, 2001 8:09 pm

According to some gossips, the final of U8 is to build a Black Gate (smashing the local gods in progress) and to return to Britannia using it.

BTW - what the unvirtuous deeds of the Avatar in U8? I've heard he participated in a murder. Really so?

I stopped on trying to kill the executioner girl (just a good opponent to duel with - dagger vs. axe, but armor vs. miniskirt).
Possible. The nearby guard does not complain (the girl seems to be a beloved citizen

), while drawing a sword in the tavern causes the mage to appear and Find You Guilty. Attacking the chancellor (and yes, JP Morris's perverted walkthrough requires this) causes the same. I dunno how he managed it.

In U7SI, Avatar kills lots of people - but virtuously, they tried to poison him or torture his companions.

XxVenomxX · Post by **XxVenomxX** » Mon Dec 03, 2001 8:20 pm

The big unvirtuous act the Avatar did in U8 was summoning Pyros, which, obviously is a daemon. That was going to play a particularly important part in U9's original plot. Lord British was going to find out somehow that happened, and things would have played off that.

Soule · Post by **Soule** » Mon Dec 03, 2001 8:41 pm

How does Underworld 2 fit into the story then?

UW2 happened right after BG.

Paulon · Post by **Paulon** » Mon Dec 03, 2001 9:52 pm

UW2 was set a year after U7. There was a big celebration at Castle Britannia to commemorate the destruction of the Black Gate, and the Guardian took the opportunity to seal most of the leaders of Britannia inside the castle while he sent an army (so he claims) to ravage a leaderless Britannia. UW2 is the story of how the Avatar breaks the dome and frees Britannia's leaders, and defeats the Guardian's personal champion, his counterpart to Britannia's Avatar. (I suspect that Mors Gotha is also from Earth, going by her last words...) The end never does say one way or the other whether the Guardian was truthful about the armies outside the Castle.

SI starts another 6 months after the UW2 bit, when examination of Batlin's belongings finally locates a scroll from the Guardian giving Batlin instructions to go to the Serpent Isle where he will be instructed in how to destroy Britannia.

Andy · Post by **Andy** » Mon Dec 03, 2001 10:41 pm

Interestingly enough, U8 was also supposed to go somewhat differently than what it ended up being. For one thing there was supposed to be a water quest, the same as with all the other forms of magic. Also, the sunken ship that was on the map, and mentioned somewhere in the game was never implemented. Let's not forget the Lost Vale. Also, (again) lets not forget how much the guard, as well as Torin looked like they were wearing similar garb to the guards of Tenebrae. They didn't match with the Thurgists at all. They were probably ment to be other characters. I think U8 would have been a lot better, had Origin not opted to chase money, and finished the game according to its original concept.

From U7 BG all the way to U9 there is evidence of cut, and unrealized plot. It is a shame that we probably will never know what the entirety of the original stories were supposed to be. PLOT, yet another casualty of big corporate (sell-out) America (as well as jobs). But that will have to change in the future... (definately off topic)

Andy · Post by **Andy** » Mon Dec 03, 2001 10:49 pm

Oh ya. At the end of U8, the original walkthrough book states that the Avatar walks through the gate, and into the Guardian's home world. This was way before they came up with the idea that the Guardian was "the other side" of the Avatar. Who knows what that original plot had in mind. Maybe he was going to go to another part of ancient Sosaria that had been ripped assunder from Britannia (like SI). "Dragons as transportation" anyone?

Max aka Moscow Dragon · Tue Dec 04, 2001 4:03 am

>and defeats the Guardian's personal champion, his counterpart to
>Britannia's Avatar.

This was surely abandoned in U9 where Guardian himself is a counterpart to the Avatar.

>(I suspect that Mors Gotha is also from Earth, going by her last words...)

She is from Tolkien's Lost Tales.

One of the satan's names. Later renamed Morgoth.

SB-X · Post by **SB-X** » Tue Dec 04, 2001 6:20 am

Andy: Where in U7 BG is there cut and unrealized plot? I'm not saying I
don't believe you, I just havn't played all the way through BG in a while
to notice anything like that.

Andy · Post by **Andy** » Tue Dec 04, 2001 8:57 am

Well, for one thing, in U7 the emp (forgot his name) was supposed to go with you to talk to the wisps (i.e. become a party member), not just stay there because his wife said so. I'm not sure about other stuff. Does anyone know if there was extra unused character art (i.e. portraits)? I can't remember.

Post by **Colourless** » Tue Dec 04, 2001 9:19 am

There was 1 unused portrait of the emp but it is of a different style to the ones that are used so it seems to be fairly old. SI is the game with all the unfinished stuff.

-Colourless Dragon

Post by **artaxerxes** » Tue Dec 04, 2001 9:45 am

and there was one of a cow, right?

Artaxerxes

Andy · Post by **Andy** » Tue Dec 04, 2001 12:19 pm

I've seen the emp art, and remember that the emp was definately ment to go with you. I think they desided to keep him at his original location for simplicity.... Maybe somebody could implement the emp into the party using exult studio *wink* using that portrait. They would have to colorize it of course. As for the cow... ha, how about a mobile food unit in your party. The Avatar does get hungry you know, just keep him away from the sheep.

I know U7 BG had very little missing from it, but the emp thing was a shortcut for the programming team, allbeit a small one.

Andy

Max aka Moscow Dragon · Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:46 pm

SI has a RatMan portrait and a Terrifying Beast portrait.
They are not used in the game.

suraimu · Post by **suraimu** » Tue Dec 04, 2001 2:36 pm

It seems that there's a -lot- of people from Earth in Britannia, if you go
by their aging between games. This would include people like Chuckles,
which is damned frightening if you ask me. Fortunately, it seems like
the 7th time murdering Chuckles finally did the trick, as he never reappeared.

Other people that seem to all be from Earth (or maybe some third-party
world, possibly) would be all of the Companions (with very few exceptions,
like Toshi), Lord British, Blackthorn, and... um... Smith is probably from
some horse world I suppose, since he spanned three or four games.
Can anyone think of any others?

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Tue Dec 04, 2001 2:42 pm

Well, there's probably some longevity magic around in Britannia as well. I don't think all of those people came from Earth.

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Tue Dec 04, 2001 3:50 pm

This is true about the earthlings in Britannia. Why is it that earthlings are the only ones who can save the world? It seems very few true Britannians join you in your travels.

I know that all of the companions are from Earth. I guess Chuckles is too.

Maybe some of these people have shards of Mondain's gem.

suraimu · Post by **suraimu** » Tue Dec 04, 2001 7:10 pm

Obviously there's some longevity magic in Britannia, but it only does so
much good. All it ever did from what I could tell, was make the person
live longer, and not necessarily stop the aging process. You came across
a couple mages that were a few hundred years old in 5-7 occasionally,
but they typically always looked the part. The Companions and such
however just plain aged very very very slowly.

However, the presence of lots of Earth people in Britannia would
certainly explain the pervasiveness of different Earth cultures throughout
theirs. Britannia has always had people that were British, Irish, Gypsies,
etc. in manner and even in appearance. Maybe Sosaria was originally
discovered or whatnot by some Earth or otherwise otherworldly people,
and their descendants' lifespans adapted to Sosaria/Britannia's time
flow, or their children were simply not immune to it like they were.
Would make a great fanfiction story, wouldn't it?

DarkFistDragon · Post by **DarkFistDragon** » Tue Dec 04, 2001 7:36 pm

About the aging.
Maybe there is a slight difference in the DNA reguarding Sosarians and Earthlings. and those who have different agings compared to sosarians AND Earth guys are crossbreeds.

Andy · Post by **Andy** » Tue Dec 04, 2001 9:29 pm

Of coarse all the "original" Britannians may be dead. Don't forget that Zog (the earliest found true Britannian) cast the armagedon spell. Who knows if there ARE any "real" Britannians anymore. A shame they didn't explain that more...

Post by **artaxerxes** » Wed Dec 05, 2001 5:39 am

Or maybe (heavens forgive me!) it is just a game with nothing to do with Real Life (tm)!

Artaxerxes

Kurt · Post by **Kurt** » Wed Dec 05, 2001 5:44 am

it was sad to see Smith dead in U9. even though I usually killed him in previous games because he was bloody irritating.

I was wondering... are there any hints of Julia being in love with the Avatar before U9?
and why oh why didn't they bother continuing the Nastassia plot?

Post by **Dominus** » Wed Dec 05, 2001 6:59 am

because Nastassia is already dead

And mainly because they neede a kind of "kick-ass", action girl, not a shy woman who just tends after the shrine.

suraimu · Post by **suraimu** » Wed Dec 05, 2001 9:18 am

> Or maybe (heavens forgive me!) it is just a game with nothing to do with Real Life (tm)!

HEATHEN

> I was wondering... are there any hints of Julia being in love with the Avatar before U9?

In Ultima 6 or 7, Julia got -extremely- pissed at the Avatar if you like
made her leave the party in another town, or in the wilderness. The
only good explanations for it are that she was either in love with him,
or she had some severe mood disorder.

Andy · Post by **Andy** » Wed Dec 05, 2001 9:48 am

> Or maybe (heavens forgive me!) it is just a game with nothing to do with Real Life (tm)!

What's real life, but your own interpretation, and the facts outside of it at hand? :0P

Post by **artaxerxes** » Wed Dec 05, 2001 11:28 am

It's what I smell, what I touch, what I see....

electric impulses in my brain in short......Oh, wait! I heard that before...

Post by **artaxerxes** » Wed Dec 05, 2001 11:28 am

It's what I smell, what I touch, what I see....

electric impulses in my brain in short......Oh, wait! I heard that before...

Artaxerxes

suraimu · Post by **suraimu** » Wed Dec 05, 2001 11:30 am

You also said it before.

Kurt · Post by **Kurt** » Wed Dec 05, 2001 11:43 am

I bet I was the only one who waited at Nastassia's house until night time and then leapt into bed right before she did

but come on, I was thirteen at the time.

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Thu Dec 06, 2001 3:39 am

"Other people that seem to all be from Earth (or maybe some third-party
world, possibly) would be all of the Companions (with very few exceptions,
like Toshi), Lord British, Blackthorn, and... um... Smith is probably from
some horse world I suppose, since he spanned three or four games.
Can anyone think of any others?"

Wrong, Toshi is a real person, he helped with making the instruction manual or programming, or something (look at the special thanks list near the back of the book, and you will see Toshi's name.)

Shamino- an RG doppleganger
Jaana- a friend of RG's, probably some hiker or something that likes nature trails, I am guessing (RG likes to travel and explore, and all the companions have occupations which relate in one way or another to who they are in real life.)
Geoffrey- Origin's first outside employee, he was a delivery guy or box boy, or something like that.
Iolo- friend of RG's that makes crossbows.
Gwenno- the real Iolo's wife
Mariah- was RG's personal secretary for awhile.
Dupre- another one of RG's close friends, supposedly fairly strong.
Captain Hawkins and Master Hawkins- Trip Hawkins

Kurt · Post by **Kurt** » Thu Dec 06, 2001 7:40 am

Iolo's real name is David Watson, I believe.
Kathleen Jones (Gwenno) died last year of cancer. there's a monument to her in UO.
The two of them wrote 'Stones' : ftp://ftp.owo.com/pub/ua/music/Stones.mp3
(Instrumental version from U9)
http://origin.stratics.com/sections/mus ... enable.mp3
(a guy singing the song along to a midi of it. good singer actually)

and if you don't already know them, the lyrics:
Long ago ran the sun on a folk who had a dream
And the heart and the will and the power;
They moved earth; they carved stone; moulded hill and channeled stream
That we might stand on the wide plains of Wiltshire.
Now men asked who they were, how they built and wonder why
That they wrought standing stones of such size.
What was done 'neath our shade? What was pray'ed 'neath our skies
As we stood on the wyrd plains of Wiltshire.

Oh what secrets we could tell if you'd listen and be still.
Rid the stink and the noise from our skirts.
But you haven't got the clue and perhaps you never will.
Mute we stand on the cold plains of Wiltshire.

Still we loom in the mists as the ages roll away
And we say of our folk, "they are here!"
That they built us and they died and you'll not be knowing why
Save we stand on the bare plains of Wiltshire.

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Thu Dec 06, 2001 7:46 am

But his timing is completely off!

XxVenomxX · Post by **XxVenomxX** » Thu Dec 06, 2001 8:21 am

Sounds the way its supposed to be to me...

Post by **drcode** » Thu Dec 06, 2001 8:49 am

You guys are really knowledgeable!

Nice version of Stones, BTW. Is that the one from U9?

Kurt · Post by **Kurt** » Thu Dec 06, 2001 1:57 pm

the musical version is from U9, yes.
The vocal version was part of an Ultima Worlds Online : Origin promotion website.
The U9 music CD is really good actually.
hey that's an idea... how about seeing if you can add mp3 support for Exult? I'll gladly supply the U9 Mp3s.

but that's probably copyrighted, so you might not be able to use it... dont know really. but if you want any sending over, let me know... i'm on a 56k so expect it to take a while (approx 45mb)

suraimu · Post by **suraimu** » Thu Dec 06, 2001 8:17 pm

> Wrong, Toshi is a real person, he helped with making the instruction
> manual or programming, or something (look at the special thanks list
> near the back of the book, and you will see Toshi's name.)

What do you mean 'Wrong'? Did you think I seriously believe these
characters passed over from our world to a fictional one?

Pan Sola · Post by **Pan Sola** » Sat Dec 08, 2001 12:44 pm

Wow... completely off the subject now d-:

Anyways, Kurt suggested adding mp3 support, but
was wondering about copy right issues, which I kinda
have an idea:

Have audio CD support in exult. I know many games
which use audio CD music, and if you play the game with
the wrong CD in the drive (cracked game, so didn't check
what cd it is), it plays the tracks on the wrong CD.

So exult can just say play song #x for this town and such,
and if you use the ultima IX music CD then it'll have the
designed result of exult, but any music CD will work fine
too.

Since then whatever exult plays depends on what's in
the CD drive, I hope this resolves the copy right issue.

Pan Sola

Kurt · Post by **Kurt** » Sat Dec 08, 2001 2:26 pm

sounds like a good idea to me. mp3s would be even better, then you could replace them with whatever you wish for certain situations too. Picture the intro playing Iron Man by black sabbath when the guardian appears on the screen.... that would be amusing.

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Sun Dec 09, 2001 6:07 pm

Am I the only one that wonders what ever happened to Geoffrey's scar he had in U7BG? It mysteriously disappears in UW2 and UA..... How did he get that thing, anyhow?

Also, how the hell is it that the Avatar's watch is in perfect working condition after 200 years in Shamino's hands? I mean, it would be one thing if it were Julia, but I don't think Shamino can fix a watch, which he'd have to in order to keep it working for 200 years (I'm lucky if a watch lasts me 5 years, geez....)

Also, why is it that Zelda says she found that biography of the Avatar in the Lycaeum's basement when there is no basement?

And why is it that Jaana still has difficulty casting her magic even AFTER you fix the ether?

And how come rogue mages can use magic but the good mages can't? Why aren't the bad-guy mages affected by the screwed Ether?

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Sun Dec 09, 2001 6:13 pm

MORE

*How is it that the Avatar has an up-to-date map of Britannia upon his arrival in Trisnic? A lot has changed after 200 years.

*How can the blue moongates still exist in BG if the Avatar dug up the moonstones in U6 and threw them into the Vortex Cube?

*Howcome swamp boots protect you from poison in the swamps when it was stated in the U4 instruction booklet that the poison is due to toxic vapors arising from the marsh? For that matter, how can you avoid it with a carpet, even?

*Why does Geoffrey say he's too busy to go adventuring with you when all he does is train on his dummy? Can't he get the same excersize going with you? Is he just BSing you? It's not like LB actually needs HIM for a bodyguard, anyway (Geoffrey IS mortal, afterall...:\)

*What ever happened to Capt. Johne?

*Why does Natassia look just like Katrina did in U6?!

*Why does Shamino not find the Ether problem annoying as well (as the moongate problem), seeing as how he's a Ranger/magic-user, and all?

*What ever happened to Iolo having magical powers? THe way he talks and acts in BG and SI, you would think he didn't have so much as a hint of magic.

*Does anyone else find it rediculous that LB, when you arrive, has just made the POSSIBLE connection between Nystul's and Rudyom's insanity, whereas Geoffrey, his captain of the guard with no knowledge of magic whatsoever, has already figured out that this problem is plaguing all the mages. Is Geoffrey actually smarter than LB, or is he just making a generalization on mages, being a fighter, and all? (fighters don't like magic)

Oh, yeah!
*What is the purpose of that set of pillars & roof north of Skara Brae with the hole in the middle of the roof? I never found any purpose to it aside from getting struck by lightning.

Another big one:
*In Cove, Lord Heather says that Natassia is the only person without a lover. However, there is no evidence that Rudyom has a lover, either....

Max aka Moscow Dragon · Sun Dec 09, 2001 10:57 pm

Nastassia can be without a lover due to lack of males in Cove.

In this situation, the girl either has adventures with some other girl's husband

(which is dangerous in a closed society) - or with strangers.

Jaana's bug is well-known, it is a game timer bug, another bug of the very same origin is disappearing the murder scene in Minoc.

Geofrrey is on LB's service, as a serviceman, he cannot go adventuring.

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Sun Dec 09, 2001 11:25 pm

He should still have a stand-in. I mean, what if he got sick/seriously injured? Would LB force him to be his bodyguard even if he had several broken ribs/food poisoning/pneumonia..?

And no, that wasn't the question. I said that Lord Heather says Natassia is the only person in Cove without a lover, but he conveniently forgets to mention RUDYOM!!!! Rudyom lives in Cove and there's no evidence he has a lover!!

Oh, and you can't say that the Avatar's map transformed when he went through the moongate because you'll notice in the intro that the map is already up to date sitting by the Avatar's computer.

ANd still, why does Natassia bear an uncanny resemblance to U6 Katrina...?

Kurt · Post by **Kurt** » Mon Dec 10, 2001 1:21 am

Rudyom has two lovers.
His magic wand and his carpet.

Did anyone else notice how batlin always has his hands in his pockets?

Maybe Katrina is Nastassia's mother, and didn't really kill herself just ran away because she was ashamed at being proud enough to actually have intercourse and get pregnant. She's meant to be humble, and never do anything all day (makes me very humble then!)

The Avatar's map is printed out from his computer, and he actually plays Ultima Online you see, so when the map gets changed he downloads a patch and gets the latest version.

Darkfist Dragon · Post by **Darkfist Dragon** » Mon Dec 10, 2001 9:05 am

Well, the Avatar might play Ultima Online, but apparently you arent.
Since the beginning of UO has the map never changed. The reason is the map file is a little bit too big to do that.
And I just watched the Black Gate intro again, and the map is without any doubt, the Ultima 6 map. So how would he get a map? I suppose, if somebody really wants to know an answer for this rather unimportant thing... Iolo gave it to him.
Katrina might not be Nastassia's mother but maybe one grandgrandgrandgrand grand granny. After all.. She is supposed to be humble.. not chaste . And active sexuality has never had anything to say about virtues. Virtues and moralities are not the same.
and who knows what Rudyom is doing in his spare time.. Mayhaps he has a lover, but that doesnt mean his target of affection HAS to be in Cove, right?

Kurt · Post by **Kurt** » Mon Dec 10, 2001 9:17 am

yes, I do play UO, and the map does change - albeit usually small changes such as an extra building, bridge or structure of some kind. But of course recently a large new area of Ilshenar was created, which is to my knowledge the first example of the map actually being changed rather than just having something added. There was actually a modification to the client a couple of months ago which does allow larger areas of the map to be changed.

Anyway, my comment was in reference to the fact that UO has an autopatcher, and yknow it was a joke that the avatar could patch his cloth map that he keeps by the computer.