A humble path

[Ey Du]

While replaying U7 my twisted mind came across this humble question. It must be humble if the avatar just tells his screen or birth name, and not that he's the avatar - unless directly asked if he is the avatar - isn't it?

So I always choose my funny screen name as answer, and seldom tell them that this red-yellow lunatic (note that he IS from another world) is actually the avatar. But a humble person would also do so.

I think this is an issue the feudal lands maker should think about if they implement a karma system. If the avatar tells his birth name, then he's humble. If he is boasting out his avatarhood, he's exploding from pride - the antithesis to humility. So please keep that in mind. The karma should actually increase if the avatar gives out his birth name - unless a npc want's him to decide, so that it is a question of honor.

If the guardian calls on the avatar "to tell them", he musn't do so - because his humility keeps him on the ground.
But if some dude asks "Are you the avatar?" he has to respond honestly. Only if he lies then, he should loose karma.

But there could be other decision problems from the like: if the avatar lies, he will be rescuing someone, who dies if he speaks the truth - now that would be very twisted! If the avatar prefers the humble path, he would lie, knowing, that he would do good in the end, and overcome his own pride, that is to excel in all virtues.

Is this some sort of theological problem? Maybe we can make an avatar schism The dark side of the avatar, and the good side of the avatar! While I'm thinking about it, never wondered where the avatar gets his magical powers from. Maybe it's from the might of the virtues. Hence Batlin used the dark side (antitheses to the virtues). When telling the story like this, one could expand the target audience to the star wars community

Maybe there could be different spells for the different sides of the virtue might! And a sidequest for the avatar is obtaining his personal light saber, i.e. forge/obtain a magical sword on his own (it glows), a precursor to the laser tecnique!

MfG
Ey Du

[artaxerxes]

I dunno if you ever played U4, U5 and U6 but in those games you have to answer similar questions where you are in a situation in which 2 possible virtues are in opposition. For instance, the king told you to stay in the camp so you can keep watch over something while he's gone to battle. You hear a report that the battle is going badly. Do you
A) Humbly obey your king and keep protection whatever he wanted you to protect, or
B) Valiantly join the battle to protect your king.

I don't think it would be a lack of humility to say you are the Avatar. After all it's the truth, one of the 3 pillars of the virtues. Or maybe we could make use of more thinking cells: only when it carries a certain purpose should you say you are the Avatar or if it would hurt the higher interest to keep silent then should you say you are the Avatar.

Artaxerxes

[Ey Du]

In fact the second or third computer game I bought and played was u4, but at that time I was too young to understand all concepts of the game.

I think it would be great if the expander of the ultima world, i.e. feudal lords, try to balance the karma system, so that it's possible to get karma points through different actions in the same situation. As your example pointed out, through A) one becomes karma points, and through B) also.

That would broaden the ultima experince for the player. It could be implemented like this: one statistical variable for each of the 8 virtues, and the karma score is then the mean of the 8 virtue variables.

MfG
Ey Du

[yhevhe]

Do you really think not saying you are the Avatar is humble? If the avatar is hidding his identity just because he wants to be humble, then he would be doing it for pride - he would be hidding himself just to be proud of being 'humble'. The more virtous answer would totally depend on the context.

[SB-X]

Then how could you positively act to be humble (in the game)?

[TdI]

baking bread and picking pumpkings?

[yhevhe]

SB-X: What Artaxerxes said is a good idea. It isn't always unvirtuous to say you are the avatar, as it isn't always humble to hide it. For example, if someone already saw you talking with Lord British or someone else important, and asks you who you are, replying you're just a commoner would be like an act of faked humility. The same if the person is arrogant or hypocrite, since you would do it to conciously humiliate yourself. In the last example, saying you are the Avatar wouldn't be bad, but accepting anything from the person just to gain your favour [saying you are the Avatar to buy people] would be unvirtuous.

Tdl: What if you just want to show off backing your excelent punpkin bread with your new oven? ;-D

[richcon]

This reminds me of the plot line at Skara Brae where everyone's trying so hard to be humble, but the only person who succeeds is the one guy who isn't trying, and is simply enjoying his life.

[richcon]

Also, humility is never at odds with truth. Saying truth, that you are the Avatar when someone asks, is not pride, it is simply honesty. That person might look up to the Avatar and would love to meet him/her someday, but he doesn't happen to know the Avatar's given name. So your real name would be useless to that person.

The whole reason you undertook the Quest of the Avatar is to be a visible example to the people of Britannia, that it is possible for an imperfect human to attain enlightenment in all eight virtues. If you hide your public identity, how can you lead?

Pride isn't in admitting truth, it is in denying those truthes that don't fit with your ego.

[TdI]

>Tdl: What if you just want to show off backing your excelent punpkin bread with your new oven? ;-D

On second thought, the things I mentioned could be regarded as applying the "antivirtue" Ignorance.

I mean, magic is dying, mages are going crazy, the fellowship is brainwashing people, innocents are being murdered, the guardian is coming..., all while the hero of the land, the Avatar, is cheerfully spending his time baking bread and picking pumpkings. Seriously, WTF? X)

[Ey Du]

Of course, I agree, that there are some important situations, where the Avatar has to give out his holy title, and this makes perfectly sense, but there might be other situations.

Consider a real example: the new secretary-general of the united nations - ban ki-moon. Everyone inside the UNO knows him of course, and if someone new enters the stage and speaks with him, he will never adress himself as: "Hi, I'm secretary-general...", or would he?

I would consider this as needless. Or your chef at work. Is he constantly indrocucing himself as CEO xxx. And if so, you would think that he has something with his title - pride!

And that's what I wanted to say. There are many situations where the name is sufficient, and needless avatar-boasting could be penalized.

Furthermore the quest of the avatar is an ongoing way. One always has to strive for being virtuous. There are many examples of fallen stars or saints, and the future is at least unpredictable. So avatarhood is a way, and not something forever safe, once obtained.

Also I remember from the ultima games, that there was at least one other character who strived for avatarhood. So nobody knows if there is THE avatar. And don't forget that the people in this forum are probably all avatars - as alter egos of the virtual one.

Maybe a good compromise would be talk options like:
a) I'm THE avatar. (-2 humility)
b) I'm one avatar. (0 humility)
c) I try to be the avatar. (+1 humility)
d) I was the avatar. (-1 humility)
e) I'm Ey Du. (+3 humility)

I would go for e), but if combined with other virtuous dialemmas (like lying and safing the people -> +3 humility, but -3 honesty), there could be generated an interesting choice of possibilities to make it a challenging quest.

MfG
Ey Du