What did you expect after U7?

Andrea B Previtera · Post by **Andrea B Previtera** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:53 pm

I am quite sure that most of the people here bought U7 when it originally came out, thus "lived" the days of 2d gaming, 40 mhz CPUs and so on. To you all I'd like to ask what did you expect after Ultima 7. What did you think upon finishing it, in terms of technological expectations for Ultima 8.

Me - I expected or at least wished the next ultima to be exactly like U7, same perspective and same gameplay - only featuring 640x480 (Svga) graphics, a protected mode memory manager, and turn-based combat. Ok, there wasn't any real "internet" back then, but I was sure that if someone ever managed to file a complaint to Lord British, he/she would have written something about the messy combat system. At that time I really couldn't imagine anything else than improved graphics. By the way, with all that code and usecode they could have improved interactivity even more allowing you to to break objects, construct houses, milk cows or whatever.

Kensu · Post by **Kensu** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:17 am

Pagan, done right, probably would've looked a lot like the Nintendo 64 Zelda games, I think.
In fact, Ocarina of Time reminds me a LOT of Ultima Underworld. And it's not just being able to hear the bats before they see them, the music in the Water Temple sounds like an unused track that Fat Man did for UU...

Andrea B Previtera · Post by **Andrea B Previtera** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:00 am

Pagan done right in my opinion would have meant adding schedules, portraits, seamless transition between maps, and some more interaction with objects (ahem... sitting, for example). Some months worth of work, probably. The atmosphere was great, possibly the best thing in the whole Pagan experience - the plot was beautiful too, and the characters were well designed. It's a very good game, it's a very bad Ultima. Ugh, going offtopic already...

ps. - thanks for the message merging

Kensu · Post by **Kensu** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:32 am

Well, load times were inevitable, Pagan was the first to show that they were needed. Of course, if they made Pagan a cartridge (where would you plug it in?) you might be able to do without loadtimes.
I do think it's rather strange that you can climb over walls but can't sit down, especially since other characters can. o_O

Hmmm.. USB cartridges, that's an interesting idea...

Kensu · Post by **Kensu** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:45 am

I remember reading in the Official Book of Ultima, where RG noted that they had to abolish the 3D dungeons in Ultima 6 because they couldn't maintain the level of interactivity. It would have been interesting if Ultima 8 had been built using two different interfaces: an isometric version of the Ultima 7 interface (like Pagan) for the overworld, and a streamlined version of the Ultima Underworld engine for dungeons and various interiors.
The trouble is, how would you implement a party in the dungeon section?

SB-X · Post by **SB-X** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:54 pm

What's special about the party? They would be individual NPCs like in the 2D version. I guess you could keep them all in the square behind the avatar, so you could see them all on the screen at once.

Post by **Dominus** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:46 pm

he he, I'd have loved to see a party in U8. That is until the first jumping puzzle when you have to watch them jump to their doom

Andrea B Previtera · Post by **Andrea B Previtera** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:49 pm

Ah right, I could I forget the party? U8 wasn't an ultima because of the missing party - before anything else!!

SB-X · Post by **SB-X** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:10 pm

About Ultima VIII, Wikipedia says:

Common complaints were:

* The world was much smaller than in the preceding parts
* NPC portraits were no longer included
* Day-and-night cycles were removed (Pagan's twilight was truly perpetual in-game)
* The game went back from the "party" concept to the "lone hero" of the first two Ultimas
* Battle against enemy characters was pure hack and slash mouse clicking. There was some resemblance to the later game Diablo
* Platform game style running, climbing and jumping across moving platforms was introduced
* Assaulting a citizen or stealing usually resulted in immediate execution by the town sorcerer
* Major holes in the plot
* Frequent bugs/glitches

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_VIII .

With Pentagram someone could start a new project (probably a fork of Pentagram) to fix all of those "problems".

Kensu · Post by **Kensu** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:31 am

You didn't have a party in Ultima or Ultima II, though.

Wizardry Dragon · Post by **Wizardry Dragon** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:48 pm

As to how to do a party in a UU type engine, perhaps a good example of this is the Eye of the Beholder series by Westwood Studios (except the third, which was done by another company, SSI I believe but I'm not sure, and is generally seen as poor compared to the other two)

It was a UU-ish engine a la Dungeon Hack, which was the proof-of-concept game for the engine itself). It had parties, and the story was well thought out. The only thing I thought was lacking was the dialogues, which were well written but the options were few.
--------
Peter M Dodge aka Wizardry Dragon
Lead Designer,
Ultima VII: The Feudal Lands

Shaun · Post by **Shaun** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:12 am

What did I expect after U7? Women... power... glory...

Well, back in the day when my brother and I first had the game, I beat it first. So I think my younger brother was impressed... still waiting on those other things though.

I guess if I expected anything, it was Serpent Isle; and then for it to continue in that vein. Improved graphics, bigger worlds, expansion of the storyline. More characters, more puzzles, more monsters, more items, more interactivity with the environment. What I didn't expect was U8... a complete overhaul of the concept that had improved graphics but not much else. After U8, it made U9 easier to see coming... improved graphics... but far, far, far less "else".

Kensu · Post by **Kensu** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:43 am

Have any of you guys actually PLAYED Ultima Underworld?
It wasn't just a first-person perspective game where you moved around inside a maze, you had to jump over chasms and climb onto blocks (which was difficult, since Looking Glass didn't implement real climbing until System Shock, with the ladders, so you had to leap onto them and hope you didn't plunge over the side), not to mention swimming.
Now, I suppose you could collapse all the party members into one avatar, but that isn't very realistic, and you would have to scrap the combat system and replace it with something like we saw in Ultimas III-V.
Another option is to write pathfinding scripts for the NPCs, but this is where the Ascension team lost it. Apparently they didn't have the rigor to implement these in a 3D world, so they ditched the party. It would even more difficult in this hypothethical "3D dungeons" version of Ultima 8, because you would have to cram everyone into tight spaces.

So, we're back to what I suggested earlier, where you make the U8 dungeons Avatar Only. Which actually would make sense given the story: since the Avatar is trying to find a way to get out of Pagan, and has no trouble going against the popular religion, he wouldn't want them around while he is laying his plans. "Uh Devon, just stay here, I'm going to have a word with the Lurker. No, nothing to do with you. Um, if your powers stop working while I'm in there, I'm sure it's because you have a cold or something..."

TdI · Post by **TdI** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:01 am

I think I'm one of the few people who enjoyed U8. It lacks so many things, yes, but the different magic systems, the creative plot and the mood of the game makes up for it somehow. The music is also great.

Now, if U8 had included the level of interactivity found in U7 and if it had contained all those small details that make U7 a living, breathing world, like day/night cycles, birds flying about and more active NPCs then it would have been amazing.
And if the world had also been a little bigger, with more NPCs and more mysteries, a little bit more like U7, it would have been almost perfect.
And if you could have gone to the harbour of Tenebrae to buy a ship and take it on a ride through dangerous waters in the hope of finding an alternate route to the plateau or to argentrock isle, than it would have been perfect.

For some reason, I didn't miss the party in U8. I guess it would have been great to have one, but here on of the big flaws of the U8 engine come to mind, namely, the sluggish NPC behaviour. Compared to U7, NPCs in U8 seem to exist in a universe of increased inertia, since everyone is so slow to move. It starts out with the Avatar. You tell him to turn and he... tuuuuuuurrrrrrns. Then you tell him to walk and he seems to ponder that for a while before finally getting his butt moving. In U7 you had NPCs actually looking busy while baking bread or performing a play. In U8 everyone and everything seems to be in a state of sleepwalking. Under the U8-engine circumstances a party following you around would have been a real pain.

Oh, you Pentagram folks, why don't you put all this stuff on your to-do list, would ya?

Andrea B Previtera · Post by **Andrea B Previtera** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:52 am

Owww, bashing/defending U8 again! But my question was a little different and aims to "old" gamers who where there when U7 was published, played it, and finished it then sat down waiting for the next Ultima, thinking "Ah, I hope the next Ultima will be like this, that, and this..."

Kensu · Post by **Kensu** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:45 pm

And I answered that question Andrea: an "old-style" Ultima using the UU engine for the dungeons.
In fact, back when UU and U7 came out, I had a theory that the two engines were once part of a single game, but it ended up being too big for them to implement.
Of course, this proved to not be the case. UU was developed independently, under the name Underworld, and several levels were finished before Origin took an interest in it. (They may explain why the operating directory is called UW instead of UU).
Around the time that U8 was being made, RG said something to the effect that "eventually the Ultima Overworld and Ultima Underworld series will merge". I assumed he meant that the 3D dungeons would be coming back.

Of course, this does show that the "platforming" aspect of Ultima 8 wasn't just some arbitrary design decision. Of course, in UU you eventually learn Levitate (which lets you walk over chasms) and Fly, which alleviates the need for jumping. You also learn Water Walk, which alleviates the need for swimming. The addition of these spells would've made Ultima 8 a lot more fun to play.

Andrea B Previtera · Post by **Andrea B Previtera** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:47 pm

Right Kensu! Actually I thought that after U8, when in an interview with a gaming magazine Garriott anticipated "Ultima 9 is going to be 3d, and I am sorry but you'll be able to play the ultimas from 9 on only on CD ROM". So much disrupting info in a few words!

He was basically saying that the Ultima saga would continue after u9 (well who expected it to be the last chapter after all? ..Later in the article he says that he was thinking of ending it with U12..)

The CD ROM only back the terrorized me. My family could barely afford the pc I owned but... a CD ROM reader?? Huh? The first models costed more or less the amount of money I spent on my whole computer

But in particular, when he said 3d I immediately thought to Underworld, and a whole britannia rendered thay way. I was thrilled but I also thought "aaah, so what? No party? An eye-of-the-beholder-like party?".

After all I think the wait for u9 has been more interesting than the wait for u8, given the technology rampage of those years and the quality of the other non-ultima games Origin was releasing back then.

daemongar · Post by **daemongar** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:22 pm

Well, I was one who played U7 & SI, UW and UW2 when they came out, and bought U8 (and it's speech pack) as soon as it came out. I was pretty thrilled with it at first. When I saw the execution, I knew something was different, and eventually the first dungeon after you join the necromancers drove me insane, and I haven't recovered...

To be honest, I didn't really want anything U8 offered. I wanted to have fun, and think, and talk to NPC's. I wanted places to explore and lots of magic and tough battles and YES, I did want the 3D view, but I would have sacrificed the graphics for the sake of having more to do.

To be honest, I'd just assumed the story would continue on the World of Pagan. I remember the blind dude in the tree mentions Pagan in SI, and I figured it would be the Avatar bringing the virtues to another world. Silly me but I can forgive Origin. I think not enough attention was given to the market forces at the time. The graphics of U7 (2d games) were showing their age. Almost every game noted in the wiki link below is a 3d game or roughly 3d, and U7 sales were ok, but 3D games were making serious coin. Origin did fantastic with Wing Commander - they needed that kind of jolt for the Ultima line. Then it all went to hell...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_in_video_gaming

Vasculio294 · Post by **Vasculio294** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:01 pm

To be honest! I hate Ultima 8!

I hated that they didn't make an improve version of the Ultima7 engine.

I wanted another Ultima7 game! ahhh

Paulon · Post by **Paulon** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:09 pm

I expected a world as detailed and interactive as U7 or SI. For U8 the potential was definitely there, but not executed. Read the book in the game files "Eye of the Boulder: Runes of the Myth Drainer" for a rather telling analysis of both the game the book parodied and the game the book was in.
*sighs*

SB-X · Post by **SB-X** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:24 am

I don't get it.

Is that Richard Garriot saying he wished he never became Lord British and created Ultima?

TdI · Post by **TdI** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:20 am

>Owww, bashing/defending U8 again! But my question was a little different

I understood your question, but that was how I tried to put it. I expected a bigger, badder U7 with greater graphics, and U8 would have been just great if it had been a little more U7-like. Thats what I expected.

>For U8 the potential was definitely there, but not executed

Jepp

Kensu · Post by **Kensu** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:17 pm

The book was referring to what a lousy game Eye of the Beholder III:Assault on Myth Drannor was.
It was never intended to refer to Pagan itself, but it ended up being quite ironic considering how disappointing Pagan was.

Of course, unlike most people here, I believed in what they were doing. I just think they needed an extra year and the full capacities of a CD-ROM only game. Given that time, I'm sure they would've realized that the more annoying aspects of the platforms simply wouldn't work and would've been removed.
Climbing was great, but underutilized, I'm sure there are a few people who didn't even know it was possible to climb in Pagan. It's annoying you couldn't climb trees or get on top of those troughs...

And it's certainly better than U9 was, I even loathed the Bob White scenario. Britannia had gotten old, especially after we saw the wonders the multiverse had to offer in UU2. It was a mistake to go back to Brittania after that.
Or, I should say, it was a mistake to go back to Britannia ONLY. If you had segments set in Brittania, Earth and a few other dimensions, I wouldn't have complained. But it was a mistake to go back and rehash the earlier games, which is what Bob White and friends were trying to do.
Ultima should've continued to grow, not fallen back on old formulas.

Neutronium Dragon · Post by **Neutronium Dragon** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:35 pm

It wouldn't have been so bad to go back to Britannia and find it to have naturally evolved from its state at the time of U7/UW2/SI. There were already hints of that in U7.

What we got was a totally scrambled version of Britannia that didn't maintain any kind of reasonable continuity, as often as anything simply for the sake of trying to block the Avatar from reaching areas he wasn't "supposed to" yet.

Neutronium Dragon

The_Viking · Post by **The_Viking** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:13 pm

Actually, judging by an old interview from around the time of Serpent Isle, Black Gate was originally intended to be the last Ultima featuring Britannia, with Ultima IX taking place on the Guardian's homeland and Ultima X possibly on Earth.

Kensu · Post by **Kensu** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:23 pm

Viking:
Yeah, back when U8 first came out I can't think of ANYONE who thought that the place the Avatar went to at the end of U8 was Brittania. We all thought it was the Guardian's homeworld.
THe idea was, I think, that the Avatar had gone and gotten godlike powers in a quest to defeat the Guardian, but then he gets to the Guardian's world to find out that EVERYONE, even the townsfolk, were as powerful as he was.
That scenario would've forced the designers to be creative. You can't just have the Avatar dying in battle with some ettins or headless's, in fact you can't let him die at all. How, then, do you confound an immortal who can blow apart any trap, can fly over any obstacle, and kill virtually anything alive?

I imagined Ultima 9 like the old SNES game Actraiser, where you observed the world from above, found what was going on, picked a time and place to act, and created an avatar to contain your form for that particular function.

Neutronium Dragon · Post by **Neutronium Dragon** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:42 pm

Really old talk on the Ultima newsgroup, including hints from various Origin staffers, had it that there was originally going to be an "Ultima 8, part 2" which would be the Guardian's homeworld (and which was where the Avatar was standing at the end of U8) - but that was canned after the reaction to U8 turned out to be so negative. Ditto the originally-planned expansion for U8, the Lost Vale.

And the original design for U9 had it back on Britannia, focusing on the virtues again, but this time with the concept that you needed to balance them against one another as much as you did to exemplify them.

That was back in 1995 or thereabouts, though.

Neutronium Dragon

jpx · Post by **jpx** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:29 pm

Does anyone else remember the screenshots of Ultima 9 that were released before the game became a fully 3D engine? I vaguely remember seeing screenshots with an isometric view... I think there were windmills in one of the shots. This was the version that was supposedly scrapped when resources were diverted to UO, I think.

Did I dream this?

SB-X · Post by **SB-X** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:55 pm

I remember reading about U9 being started with a 2D engine, but never saw any screenshots.
(maybe they weren't talking about U9, and just "the next Ultima", before they cancelled U8pt2 and The Lost Vale)

Neutronium Dragon · Post by **Neutronium Dragon** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:38 pm

I remember those. There was one with the Avatar standing outside of a mine entrance, too, wearing an outfit similar to U8's (albeit with lighter colors).

Neutronium Dragon

XxVenomxX · Post by **XxVenomxX** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:11 pm

http://www.hayn.nildram.co.uk/ there's a nice selection of screenshots of the 'old' U9, mixed with various promo shots of how U9 turned out etc. It's obvious which are which, since they're not really sub-categorized.

The_Viking · Post by **The_Viking** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:59 am

I don't think there were ever any screenshots of a 2D Ultima IX - if such a thing even existed. The isometric engine was also 3D, and would require a 3D card.

Andrea B Previtera · Post by **Andrea B Previtera** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:18 am

No Viking, it wouldn't require a 3d card actually.. just like the first Tomb Raider and a few other games from the era of Voodoo 1 and such - it was going to be software driven, and maybe accelerated if you had a 3d add-on card (and "accelerated" mostly meant alpha blending and bilinear filtering... end!)

From the screenshots, it looks clearly software rendering. Sigh, the nostalgy..

MV · Post by MV » Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:54 am

Yeah, back when U8 first came out I can't think of ANYONE who thought that the place the Avatar went to at the end of U8 was Brittania. We all thought it was the Guardian's homeworld.

Heh, I must be the only one then. I thought it was britannia and that the guardian had taken over. I really picked up on the story at the time that the guardian had just thrown me into Pagan to hold me up after serpent isle, while he took over britannia. What more of a perfect place to hold me up other than a world that was already under the guardians influence?

I was really expecting some sort of massive epic to happen afterwards though, what with (or so I did actually think at the time), britannia in ruins, the guardian with total control, AND now I've just gotten all of the powers of the titans for myself....... Should have made a kick arse showdown, and a cool journey as I discovered the powers of being the titan of ether....... I guess those were my expectations after u7/8.

Then the story to U9 was announced and it made no sense. I start on earth? I'm not a titan? It seems the pillars in U9 were there ONLY because of the ending of ultima8. Probably the only creative thing that went into u9 was figuring out what to do with the pillar at the end of u8.

Neutronium Dragon · Post by **Neutronium Dragon** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:36 am

I distinctly remember an Origin rep back around the 95-96 period stating that by the end of U9, you'd have fully explored the powers of the Titan of Ether.

Can't recall if it was Brian Martin or one of the others, though.

Neutronium Dragon

jpx · Post by **jpx** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:39 am

XxVenomxX, thanks for the link!

I think this is what I remembered:
http://www.hayn.nildram.co.uk/tow2rot2.jpg

Definitely an isometic 3D engine... Makes me wish they had continued that version instead of switching perspectives.

Daniel Burke · Post by **Daniel Burke** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:59 am

I must say that for me U8 was one of my favorite ultimas. In fact it probably comes in there at number two after The Black Gate. I know that is a bit weird. But for some reason I really felt that I was there, living in that creepy world, a lot more than I did in serpent isle (which while impressive in scope for me often felt a little bit too contrived and labrinthine as far as the plot was concerned). It was more than just the higher levelr graffics. It was the music, the art work, the strange new setting, the whole atmosphere of the game.
That being said, UU1 and UU2 do rock massively.

Oisín's ghost · Post by **Oisín's ghost** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:16 pm

I bought Ultima VIII with the winnings from some pub raffle, before I even had a PC! I'd been playing Ultima 7 on my friend's pc for about a year, thinking it was the best thing ever. So I assumed, naively, that a sequel would be all the goodness of U7 and more...

When I finally bought my PC, I was pretty disappointed to find that it was totally different and missing the very qualities I loved U7 for - the immensely immersive environment and depth of the plot. I'd played Ultima 7 for a year without actually realising what the 'goal' was, spending my time fighting, amassing treasure, learning spells, baking bread and the like.

Standing in Virgin, holding the Ultima VIII box in awe, I read about the various spells, thinking the "Open ground" spell might lead to underground chambers for further exploration... so when I realised it didn't, and that the game size was so much smaller than the U7 map area and noticed how completely linear and buggy the plot was, ended up relying on walkthroughs to complete the game without getting stuck in paradoxes.
That said, I still enjoyed U8 for its atmosphere and some of the puzzly elements, and the magic systems. In fact, I found the experience similar to U9 much later, perhaps better in terms of the atmosphere.
But I did like the climbing and physics elements of U9 (utterly hate the combat system though - I remember bashing some bandit with my staff about 200 times before he fell... come on! Nobody is that hardy. Toughness should have meant parrying or dodging, rather than just dull thumps having no effect).

After reading DOUG the eagle's "Ocean Travel Without a Boat", I tried replicating the effect, but found it easier to simply build a bridge all the way from the beach in Paws to the mountains of Trinsic, made from staves, scrolls, vials and pies.

Fun times... otherwise, the game wasn't a whole lot of fun, and the Avatar himself was damned annoying. Really bad voice acting all around TBH... some half-English attempts, mixed with extreme American drawls.

btw: seems impossible to retrieve a forgotten password on the forum. nice...

Post by **Dominus** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:07 am

seems impossible to retrieve a forgotten password on the forum. nice...

yup, it's the same reason we do have that huge spam problem. The forum is supposed to be a support forum for Exult that should make it as easy as possible for people to post their questions, answers...
*I* hate nothing more than having to register, wait for the registration mail, enter a password and so on, just for asking a simple question.

SB-X · Post by **SB-X** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:49 am

Really bad voice acting all around TBH... some half-English attempts, mixed with extreme American drawls.

This is totally OT, but that reminds me of the terrible voice acting in Gothic. I preferred to play it with speech turned off. I don't know who thought it was a good idea for nearly everyone (especially the members of the swamp cult) to sound like they were from rural Texas, but it just didn't work for me. Fortunately, the voice acting/direction in Gothic 2 (even with the same VA's) was much better and even enjoyable.

Garrett · Post by **Garrett** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:05 pm

I didn't think Gothic's voice acting was all that bad, but then again I was too busy struggling with the key combos and horrid mouse control.

Yes, key combos. For those that haven't played it, to pick up an item or talk or navigate menus you have to press TWO keys, and it isn't always the same two keys. Fortunately my handy-dandy Microsoft Intellimouse Optical Pro allows me to bind some of the commands, but it's still inexcusable that a game went to retail with controls that bad.

Also, strafing makes your character jump around like a drunk even more than the original Tomb Raider. The camera control is worse than Tomb Raider too. And let's not forget that diving head-first into the water seems to swap some controls as well...

Sorry for the epic OT-ness, but the game has far worse faults than the accented voice acting.

Adam Delderfield · Post by **Adam Delderfield** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:25 pm

Well, I think I wanted pretty much the same thing I got with Ultima 7. It's still one of my favourite games today, so I would've been looking for more of the same.

Ultima 8 wasn't the end of the world, but Ultima 9 was an absolute failure in my eyes. I think the most fun I had with Ultima 8 was filling my backpack up with explosives, and using the spells to make monsters fight each other. I never really felt free, or even interested, in Ultima 8 or 9, however.