WIP: Beh Lem in U7

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:43 pm

Here's a thought I've been toying around with for a while: a gargoyle party member for Ultima 7. Beh Lem is the obvious choice, and he should certainly be around age-wise if Draxinusom is. I've been trying to make a portrait that would be a reasonable extrapolation of him in Ultima 6. So, side-by-side comparison of work in progress:

Post by **Dominus** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:10 pm

I like

Post by **marzo** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:40 pm

To like it too. To wish to inform you to be possible to have a paperdoll for him, like automatons.

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:49 pm

Yeah. A long time ago I inquired here about if it would be possible to disable the backpack slot for a character. Now that I think of it, disabling the helmet slot on account of horns would be appropriate too. I wonder how difficult it would be to have it only accept special gargoyle helms... Come to think of it, I'll have to adapt those gargoyle belts from U6 too.

Post by **marzo** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:43 pm

The easiest way to "disable" backpack and armor slots would be to make an invisible, unequipable, self-recreating item to permanently fill the slot. I'd say that a winged gargoyle would also be unable to wear armor that wasn't custom-made, and would probably avoid using armor anyway because it would hamper flight. This unequipable armor could, of course, still grant protection, to represent their innate hardiness -- although a monster record would probably be more appropriate.

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:09 pm

Thanks for the input. I had tested myself the necessity of the self-recreating part by getting an NPC who has those spell items, killing him/her, resurrecting and seeing that they had disappeared.

I guess you are right about not using armor. It would have to be pretty huge to begin with, since Beh Lem was still growing in Ultima 6 yet the size of a grown man, by the looks of things.

Speaking of flying gargoyles, I noticed there are frames in the game for that, yet I cannot remember seeing any gargoyles actually fly.

Post by **marzo** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:26 pm

The flying gargoyle is a shape on its own: shape 226.

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:41 pm

Yeah, that's what I did spot while going through the shapes. What I meant I can't remember seeing them during gameplay anywhere.

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:41 pm

Also, the portrait feels pretty much finished to me.

Post by **marzo** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:19 am

You can't see it anywhere because it isn't used. I thought about using it in Keyring; but I think I'll probably reserve it for TFL instead.

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:46 pm

Now that I take a close look at the sprites, the gargoyles in Ultima 7 are wearing more than in 6, though not much. Warriors have X-shaped straps going around the body with a small breastplate of some kind in the middle of the chest. Stranger is that everybody seems to be wearing a loin cloth -type piece to cover the groin area, though gargoyles do not have genitals. Maybe they adjusted so that the humans would not be quite so uncomfortable due to another sentient humanoid species running around stark naked.

quentinak · Post by **quentinak** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:11 pm

I suppose Gargoyles can still wear rings, leg armors, the gorget, and maybe gloves?

We might want to give an real name to Beh Lem. I remember seeing a fanfic that gave him a name. Perhaps that can be looked into.

Marzo, to hope that you would speak in the Gargish manner for the remainder of this thread.

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:58 pm

I have been thinking about the name. At your mention I dug up a fan fiction at Dragon Press which gives him the name Umdelor, but that is actually a reference to the writer of the story, Shadow of Light. Personally, I'm thinking of naming him something like "traveling one", and I have been planning his personal history after U6 and dialogue in general.

(with Spark in party)
Beh Lem: "To have also been young when traveled with the Avatar."
Iolo: "And he was still more mature than Shamino."

quentinak · Post by **quentinak** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:10 pm

Something like traveling one sounds appropriate. I always assumed that Beh Lem went on his own quests for the betterment of his people and for human-gargoyle relations during U7.

Maybe Beh Lem should speak Britannian English since he learned it when he was young. I think of him as being able to speak it perfectly, better than most other gargoyles. But, he might choose to speak Gargish with the Avatar or speak Britannian with the Gargish form out of cultural identity. Well, it'll be up to you to explain it.

Post by **artaxerxes** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:18 pm

I thought Beh-Lem was a wingless gargoyle

Artaxerxes

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:28 pm

He was a young winged one. Apparently they grow wings later on. There's a gargoyle book in Ultima 6 which deals with this:

The Book of Family
When a child hatches from his egg, he is born without wings. But even from birth one can tell whether a child will grow up to be a winged or a wingless one.
The wingless ones cannot speak, and lack the intelligence of the winged ones. They must be guided.
The winged ones are few, but they are entrusted with the intelligence and wisdom of the race. They must guide.
Both winged and wingless ones spring from the same eggs, and both belong to the same family.
All function as a single whole, to better maintain the struggle for survival in our world.

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:31 pm

Looking into gargoyle language and names I just realized something: Inamo means "make love". Uhh...

Warder · Post by **Warder** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:35 pm

I'm fairly sure Gargoyles do not speak with Britannian grammar not because they do not know or understand it, but because they have a very different way of thinking. Like, their brains work differently than those of humans. If that wasn't the case, there would certainly have been gargoyles speaking with "proper" grammar in U7, two hundred years after their integration into Britannian society.

_ · Post by _ » Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:57 pm

if I recall correctly, the other residents of Serpent's Hold specifically note that the gargoyle living there was raised by humans but *chooses* to speak with the gargoyle 'accent' as a matter of cultural identity.

MeddlingMonk · Post by **MeddlingMonk** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:13 am

That's right. My take on the way Gargoyles speak is that they are imposing the grammar of their own language on human speech. Kind of like (to use a fictional example) when the King of Bohemia writes in a letter to Sherlock Holmes "This report of you we have from all quarters received." The words are English, and the sentence makes sense, but the word order is German. It's hard to think in one language and speak another without the shape of former showing through. So most Gargoyles speak the way they do because they're not fluent in Britannian, and it's hard for them to be fluent because they mostly live separate from humans.

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:36 am

I just realized that the winged gargoyles do not have sitting frames. I'll have to provide one for transports to be usable with Beh Lem in the party. Speaking of frames, can anyone tell me what the NPC attack frames correspond to? There seem to be two separate sequences, which I suppose are for swinging and stabbing. At least Spark has only one of these animations. Does that have any practical effect on combat, or is it just cosmetic?

Post by **marzo** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:19 pm

One set of attack frames is for 1-handed weapons (frames 4, 5, 6) and the other is for two-handed weapons (frames 7, 8, 9). Several non-combatants and "weaker" NPCs have only the two-handed set, which is used for both. Some weapons use all 3 frames, some use only two (4, 6 or 5, 6/7, 9 or 8, 9) and some use only one (6 or 9).

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:11 pm

Thank you. I'm guessing the fast/slow swing/stab attribute of weapons affects how many frames it uses?

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:38 pm

Look everyone, our old buddy Beh Lem got ripped!

This is not the final product. I think I'll have him wear a belt and a sash so a pouch and quiver make sense. I have no idea whether I'll include actual wings in it. You may notice that the feet look weird. After examining the ending of Ultima 6 where you can see Draxinosum's body in entirety, I came to the conclusion that gargoyle feet are somewhat different from humans.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go reinforce my heterosexuality after staring at semi-naked muscled men so long for reference.

Post by **marzo** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:36 am

I'm guessing the fast/slow swing/stab attribute of weapons affects how many frames it uses?

Aye: swing uses either frame 5 or 8 (one- or two-handed, respectively), while stab doesn't; slow uses either frame 4 or 7 (ditto), while fast doesn't. All use either frame 6 or 9 (ditto again). Before and after the attack, frame 4 is used.

Lathlas · Post by **Lathlas** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:41 am

That's much better than the gargoyle gump I made way back when, you're welcome to hijack any parts of mine if you want. I just made him for fun.

Scythifuge · Post by **Scythifuge** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:20 am

Awesome! I love seeing people make new graphics for Exult! There are only a few of us, but hopefully that will change. I love the detail in Beh Lem's paperdoll! My shading skills need a lot of practice...

Quote:

Aye: swing uses either frame 5 or 8 (one- or two-handed, respectively), while stab doesn't; slow uses either frame 4 or 7 (ditto), while fast doesn't. All use either frame 6 or 9 (ditto again). Before and after the attack, frame 4 is used.

That is good to know!

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:49 am

Quote:

That's much better than the gargoyle gump I made way back when, you're welcome to hijack any parts of mine if you want.

Thanks. I'll see what I can do.

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:42 pm

Adding wings proved to be surprisingly non-intrusive. If they look too small, blame the games. Again, I used the opening and ending of Ultima 6 as a guide. The belt is based on the gargoyle belt in the same game which is an equippable item.

Post by **Dominus** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:44 pm

THis looks very good. I want that mod and I want it along with the keyring mod

quentinak · Post by **quentinak** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:12 pm

It appears to me that there are practical difference between Stab and Swing, since Stab appeared to be faster and hit with higher frequency. I discovered this when I did a little "mod" for myself in editing practical differences into various weapons (ie. halberd would be slow and swing while magic sword would be fast and stab).

The winged gargoyle looks great! Can't wait to play U7 again just to try this out.

Post by **marzo** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:22 pm

Since it uses less frames, stab is indeed faster (by 1 frame ~ 1 tick ~ 0.1 seconds) than swing; likewise, fast is faster than slow by the same rate.

Re: placing it on Keyring: it is something I have considered. I also thought of adding a method to allow the avatar to make a golem and add it to the party. The golem would probably be too powerful, but a gargoyle would be a fine addition.

The major problem of a winged gargoyle is that they can fly, though; there would be little reason why the avatar could not ask for a "lift" to an otherwise unreachable spot.

quentinak · Post by **quentinak** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:16 pm

Quote:
The major problem of a winged gargoyle is that they can fly, though; there would be little reason why the avatar could not ask for a "lift" to an otherwise unreachable spot.

Yes, I believe that that is a main reason why there were no winged gargoyles as party members in U6 and U7, as the developers didn't want to open that can of worms.

For this mod, an explanation can be given why he wouldn't fly, like his wings were seriously injured and will need time for the healing spells to work, etc. I'm sure Crowley already has a few ideas up his sleeves.

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:24 pm

Quote:

For this mod, an explanation can be given why he wouldn't fly, like his wings were seriously injured and will need time for the healing spells to work, etc. I'm sure Crowley already has a few ideas up his sleeves.

To be honest (which is a virtue) that is one thing I haven't thought of...

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:32 pm

Some gargoyle armor:

For reference, also the gargoyle warrior sprite I based the breastplate on. For the helmets I took the ones in Ultima 6 as a base. Then I started wondering about facilitating the horns, and thus extended the opening to the sides of the top of the head. Just don't as me how they actually get these things on. The ones on the left are planned magic armors. Since magic breastplate in Serpent Isle has the ankh, it felt logical to put the singularity symbol on this one. I couldn't think of anything more creative for the magic helmet. I'll add red glow on these, for which I got the idea from the magic boomerang.

Warder · Post by **Warder** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:17 am

They look good, but I think the glow on the magic items should be blue. The gargoyles use the same kind of magic as Britannians, it can be safely assumed that they use the same methods of enchantment as well.

Shaun · Post by **Shaun** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:17 pm

Gargoyle Physics

IMHO there is no reason to explain why Beh-Lem wouldn't fly around; his wings hurt sounds a little contrived to me, especially in a world where magical healing is so common place.

Logically, gargoyles probably wouldn't evolve to carry large loads while on the wing. I can't think of any flying animals that could carry anything roughly the same size as itself and fly. So, sorry Avatar, no free rides! Gargoyle wings wouldn't be strong enough to accomodate you.

Plus, Beh-Lem wouldn't be taking to the wing too much while traveling with a group of people who can't fly... they couldn't keep up with him; hence no group. Since U7 doesn't support party members seperating from the group like in U6, no problem with solo mode.

And why would Beh-Lem need to ride a flying carpet if he could fly? Easy. Why stand when you can sit? Economy of energy for someone who is likely to need his strength to fight.

That's what I think, take it for what it's worth. By the way, really good work Crowley, all the work you put into this is awesome! Keep it up!

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:54 am

Thank you for your thoughts, Shaun. The only remaining troublesome scenario would then be why can't you ask Beh Lem to fetch some small item for you that is beyond your reach, but I think those are few and far between enough to overlook. Stacking crates to reach Alagner's notebook comes to mind.

And for a progress report, I'm making headway into making the actual sprite sheet for Beh Lem. Current winged gargoyles have only the one-handed attack animation, and I don't see much need to add a two-handed one since they just are that damn big and strong. Also, one of the two sitting frames is done.

agentorangeguy · Post by **agentorangeguy** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:17 pm

Crowley, I just emailed you on your email from your profile, I had a few questions.

Great work by the way, awesome.

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:45 pm

Hooray! I managed to make an NPC that uses my new Beh Lem sprite and portrait. I did stick the conversation tree of another NPC into it. I didn't do much with it yet, but at least it proved capable of fighting back when I attacked it.

I wonder if this is how Doctor Frankenstein felt...

Shaun · Post by **Shaun** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:56 pm

Crowley: I'd say for the same reason the Avatar can't ask Shamino to take care of stacking those crates while he takes a nap; the game mechanics don't support it.

Any computer-based RPG has limitations, you know? I don't think the fact the the PCs simply can't enter the water decreased the value of the game to any of us despite the fact that in the real world they absolutely would be able to do so.

Lathlas · Post by **Lathlas** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:24 pm

I wonder if this is how Doctor Frankenstein felt...

I think the Frankenstein story would have been totally different if he had a forum to post in.

"Look, I made a monster mod!"

"Dude, your filehost sucks"

"I don't like the bolts on his neck, also, he should be orange not green. Green is a stupid color."

"Meh, I'll wait for God to release the official monster patch. Modding is cheating."

"N00b. I made like 10 monster mods that are way cooler than yours, but I don't want to upload them here because people will just steal them."

"I am liking, but how do I install? What is rar?"

"Dude, DON'T GET THIS MONSTER! I went to download it and before I even clicked the link I got a virus!!!1"

"BUG REPORT: This monster seems incompatible with my angry villager mod."

"His fire resistance is way to low. I equipped a torch and he just ran away!"

"I tried to use him with my little blind girl character and she drowned! What gives?"

agentorangeguy · Post by **agentorangeguy** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:37 pm

HAHAHAHAHAH that sounds about right....

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:31 am

Now, this is an actual in-game screenshot:

Mostly this is to show how the new winged sitting frame fits. That is not a fully functional NPC, just a shape I dropped into the game.

Post by **Dominus** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:10 am

Hail lord beh lem

agentorangeguy · Post by **agentorangeguy** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:42 pm

Very nice.

TDI · Post by **TDI** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:12 pm

Nooooooooooooooooo! The gargoyles have taken over Britannia!
Curse thee Crowley! See now, what thou hast accomplished through thy tinkering with the pixels of the etherial void!

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:34 pm

I've hit a problem here and I have no idea what it is about or how to fix it. I started testing out the spritesheet by replacing the shape of one of the party members with Beh Lem. Now when he is facing west, he is invisible whenever the standing frame should be used, as if there was no frame there at all. This problem does not occur at all when facing north. Can anyone help?

Post by **Malignant Manor** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:35 am

I believe it just uses frame 0 for facing west and standing. You should also have this problem when facing north.

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:16 am

And frame 0 is not empty. 'Tis most perplexing. I am perfectly willing to send out my shapes file for others to figure out.