Differences between the Maps of TFL and Ultima 1

[BörZ]

The Feudal lands seem like an excellent project and I am really looking forward to playing this gem, once it is finished...

I have a couple of questions though:

Is the map-screenshot that is available on thefeudalland.ca the finished map?

When compared to the original map from Ultima 1, there are lots of areas that differ. For example:
- Savage Place and Horror of the Harpies/Helen have completely different topography (mountains missing, deserts/wasteland in the wrong places)
- Dead Warrior Mountains as well as Harpies II/Hercules are missing too...
- There are more, but this are the first that I noticed...

Is it planned to give the map more detail and correct the basic topography? I know that flora and fauna could have changed since the events of Ultima 1, but the general structure of the land would probably be the same...

The map also seems too small, when compared to Ultima 1 (compare size of the central city vs. entire continent...)...

For comparison, here are the two maps:

TFL: http://www.thefeudallands.ca//wp-conten ... ult004.jpg

Ultima 1: http://www.pdragon.net/u1/feudal.jpg

Don't get me wrong, this is an excellent project you guys are working on : )

Thanks
BörZ

[marzo]

The general answer: the mod is currently at version 0.1.1 alpha. Any incompleteness or lack of detail in the map will be "fixed" as the mod progresses. Complaining about those things now is utterly pointless.

With the above consideration, only the following is worthy of specific replies:

When compared to the original map from Ultima 1, there are lots of areas that differ.[snip]
I know that flora and fauna could have changed since the events of Ultima 1, but the general structure of the land would probably be the same...

Compare the layout of Britannia and SI from U1 and U7/SI and you will see that this isn't at all true. Moreover, the basic map layout of the TFL map has been autogenerated from the in-game U1 map (as opposed to the cloth map), so it is truer to the game than the map you link to; but the autogeneration wasn't perfect, and there is a lot of things that have to be fixed, and the cities and such have to be done manually.

The map also seems too small, when compared to Ultima 1 (compare size of the central city vs. entire continent...)...

Nothing can be done about it; this is limited imposed by the game engine. So unless you want the in-game city to feel like a tiny little village, it will have to take a sizeable portion of the game map. Like, you know, Britannia in BG and Monitor in SI.

[BörZ]

Thank you for your reply, this more or less answers most of my questions.

Considering the ratio between the city and the rest of the map: wouldn't it be possible to simply increase the size of the map (thus the city would not be the size of a village, but the rest of the map would feel more spacious...)

Thank you
BörZ

[SepiaAndDust]

You're seriously gonna hate my post-U1 Lands of Lord British map... I shrunk the continent by about 10% just so there'd be enough ocean to justify having ships.

I flippantly brush aside all such inconsistencies as "cartographical errors" on the parts of the original mapmakers, even for the game-map, itself. Our *modern* maps, of course, are much more accurate!

[marzo]

wouldn't it be possible to simply increase the size of the map

Nope; engine limitation and all.

[BörZ]

so be it... I am looking forward to the finished game...

[Crysta the Elf]

Couldn't you, as an alternative, make something of a "throwback" to old RPGs and place a "city" graphic at a specific point on the map that acts as a teleporter to a seperate map entirely containing the city?

Or, alternately, have the edges of the world map act as teleporters to other maps in a similar fashion so you could technically say... use 4 seperate world maps as quadrants of one whole large map (can see this being a pain to get the sextant working with tho, if at all)?

[curiousis]

Seriously guys, isn't the original Ultima7 world big enough? I mean, it's a BIG map.

[Crysta the Elf]

Oh I agree... I just like expressing ideas others might not consider sometimes.

[SepiaAndDust]

Not nearly as large as I'd like it. I've always wanted to eventually attempt a series of maps remaking the BG world, enlarging each chunk by a factor of 9. In other words, each 3x3 group of chunks would represent one chunk from the current map. That would be a detailed and immersive land! (And you couldn't walk to Vesper in a single day, either....)

[Wizardry Dragon]

These ideas are great and all, but The Feudal Lands will be a _huge_ undertaking to get it done as is, without making the map larger. It's _already_ been a huge undertaking (I started it in '03!) - just to get the engine and tools up to the level that they need to be to make this happen, and for that we have Marzo to thank, for the large part.

To address salient points:

- The TFL map is autogenerated directly from the U1 data. Not the cloth map. The cloth map is ...not precisely accurate. The U1 data on the other hand

- Yes, scaling happens. It cannot be helped with the engine as is currently, without a seperation of world map/town maps. Since Exult can only handle so many maps without going screwey, I do not consider it a technically viable solution. And since this would involve a ton more mapping work, I don't consider it feasible either.

- The cities in TFL will differ from those in the original U1. Anyone remember the names? I mean, they were _horrible_.

Cheers, Wizardry Dragon
Lead Designer, Ultima VII: The Feudal Lands
www.thefeudallands.ca

[Oblivious]

""Seriously guys, isn't the original Ultima7 world big enough? I mean, it's a BIG map.""

If anything it's waaay too small. I mean, look at how quickly (in game terms) you can travel from one end of the map to the other.
Not to mention that the map is like only half the size of the map of Ultimas 4-6. In 4-6 it takes about 2 game-time hours IIRC to travel from Moonglow/Moonglow's circle of stones to Lycaeum, for instance.

[Wizardry Dragon]

Regarding map size, its steadily decreased in games period as the map representations need more and more processing power - look at the HUGE size of TES2: Daggerfall - then compare to TES4: Oblivion, where, at most parts in the game, you can see the capitol on the horizon.

Memory was enough of an issue as is, when Ultima VII came out - to the point that Origin had to do that heavy wizardry that was the memory manager. I can only imagine how much more convoluted it could have gotten were they to need more memory.

While it would probably be possible to make Exult take larger maps, it would require too much work both in reprogramming the engine, making it work properly with the old map sizes, and then remapping TFL, that I do not consider it feasible. If someone else wants to modify TFL or just Exult in general to do this themselves, they are more than welcome to do so. As is, I have enough work on my hands.

Cheers, Wizardry Dragon
Lead Designer, Ultima VII: The Feudal Lands
www.thefeudallands.ca

[Der]

"Not to mention that the map is like only half the size of the map of Ultimas 4-6."

No, it isn't. Unless you count it by estimated land size (ie: considering U4 to have a bigger map than U7 simply because of its scale) as opposed to ACTUAL size.

[Andrea B Previtera]

Since the thread seems to be all about map sizes now, let me add my two cents.

Map size may have steadily decreased, but there's a different approach to gaming now compared to 15 years ago. Ultima 7's map now seems acceptably big to me, but not really that huge. 15 years ago, even after finishing the game three times, I could still feel myself lost in the vastity of Britannia.

That was because I savored every corner of the world and constantly walked rather than running. Running was something I resorted only rarely when escaping a serious threat. Also, I often paused to meditate on my next step, to eat something (in the real world), to sort my party's backpacks, experiment a bit with items or critters, and so on.

The run/kill/hack/push engine limits/make movies approach that's so common today spoils everything and makes creating a large world absurdely challenging.

Also, the current design style is to make locations either completely unreachable before a certain "flag" is set, and when a location is reachable it's usually not very challenging because the designers know that at that point you've reached a certain level/equipment.

A game I loved under this point of view, was Demon's Winter: the world semt SO huge and SO full of mystery because you were free to explore the whole world, even the final dungeon itself, since the very beginning (well, after having gathered enough gold to buy a ship at least). But some places, including whole "continents", were filled with such powerful creatures that upon washing on the shores you had to tell yourself "ok, I'll be back here in 20 levels". Or you could struggle to make your way through it using all your strategic skills and spells, usually to die a few tiles from that mysterious temple or legendary city.

(Yes, you can go pretty much everywhere from the beginning in u7 too, but no place is actually challenging, thanks to the pathetic combat system)

[Dude]

"the basic map layout of the TFL map has been autogenerated from the in-game U1 map (as opposed to the cloth map)"

How did you auto-generate the map?

[Dominus]

I don't know if that has been used for tfl but there is a tool by artaxerxes (I think) that can autogenerate a basic map from a template picture.

[Wizardry Dragon]

It was autogenerated by myself using a slightly more cutting edge of the tool Dominus is talking about - or at least the one I think he's talking about - which is to say the tool got tweaked until we got the most accurate chunk output we felt we could.

Cheers, Wizardry Dragon
Lead Designer, Ultima VII: The Feudal Lands
www.thefeudallands.ca

[Dude]

Interesting. Thanks for the info, Dominus and WD.

[3D Master]

Heh, I have to say, seeing the map pictures, I find them far too much the same.

If this occurs during U7 time-frame, hundreds of years have past in Britannia; Island disappeared, or rose from the bottom ocean; same happened with dungeons. Thousands of years have past in SI; and although the basic shape is somewhat the same, there are also some significant differences between U1 Lands of D&D, and U7-2 SI.

Similarly, hundreds, to thousands, to many more years could have occurred in The Feudal Lands - not to mention that this land was once part of Sosaria and the entire place was sheared off, torn away, and dumped somewhere else to be entirely different world; wouldn't there be some significant differences as well? Sections lost to sea, a new volcanic Island risen from the ocean; a whole section of land torn off by some (tectonic) activity so now there's water and the rest of the lands are across it. Thus, also, climates would change; places where magic don't work and the world is just ashes because of some sorceress experiment that blew up in his face - I don't know - lots of differences.

[Wizardry Dragon]

There are certainly possibilities, and to some degree some of that will be a reality in the game when the map is fully developed, but I'm not going to say any more, as that'd be spoilers

Cheers, Wizardry Dragon
Lead Designer, Ultima VII: The Feudal Lands
www.thefeudallands.ca

[Oblivious]

I agree with 3D Master. Maybe you could ask someone well-versed in plate tectonics how TFL might possibly turn out. (well, that's what I'd do anyway, but I'm obsessively pedantic like that)