I have some requests for the Keyring Mod

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:42 pm

if they haven't been done already (I haven't gotten to playing it yet)

1. A paperdoll for Geoffrey, and allow him to join somehow (maybe have some guard take his place while he's gone) It would be nice to have him join so that you can have all the original companions.
2. We need a magic spear. It wouldn't be difficult to make the paperdoll and sprite for it (it should be glowing blue and white of course) Should be a thrown and returnable weapon. Attack power bet. 8-10.
3. If not already implemented, a 'nilla staff (a la SI) of about 2-3 attack power (the SI one is overpowered)

If I were a programmer, or much good at making the paperdolls myself (I always had trouble with the palettes when importing stuff to photoshop), I'd do the magic spear and Geoffrey sprite myself, but unlike the Jaana face which I made years back (which was simply a modification of the Avatar female's face), this one would have to be made from scratch.
Uh, any takers?

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:33 am

What, no takers? I'd really like to see Geoffrey playable (with paperdoll)

Other ideas, if they haven't already been implemented:

--Allow the enchant spell to recharge wands and Firedoom staff, maybe 5-10 charges per pop.
--Perhaps make it possible to create starbursts by enchanting gems
--Import some of the mundane items from SI like say-- the brushes and the wineskins, and the vertical baskets/backpacks, the different colored desks, the dartboard, and the different tables. Oh, and some of the pelts (obviously not the snow leopard pelt though) Also, it would be nice to have cupboards (hanging ones) Oh, and I think the clocks in SI have a different palette, as well. Hey, man, half the fun of Ultima 7 is redecorating!
--If not done already, name the individual items that are named in SI bug not BG such as the buckets, kitchen items, the potted plants, the pots (one of them is named) and utensils.

Quentin · Post by **Quentin** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:54 pm

Could be interesting things to add it, but I think I'll have to be an optional mod that can be separately added onto Keyring Mod instead of having them lumped together.

I like the recharge wands idea, and would be nice to import items and some animals from SI that would make sense to be in BG (like bears for example)

Post by **marzo** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:11 pm

Several NPCs in the Keyring mod can cast a "recharge" spell that recharges wands and staves; but I like the idea of enchant doing that too. I am not so sure about the starbursts, though; it would be better if I had any idea what they are supposed to be. Importing frame names is a good idea.

As for importing SI items: that would be a big no; at least not with the same graphics.

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:32 pm

""I am not so sure about the starbursts, though; it would be better if I had any idea what they are supposed to be.""
You don't remember? They are the little gems (obviously meant to be gems of viewing originally) that you throw and they make little explosions. Enchanting gems would be a little tedious of course because you could only enchant one at a time.

""As for importing SI items: that would be a big no; at least not with the same graphics.""
Why is that?

Also, what about the Geoffrey joining/paperdoll?

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:41 pm

Oh, and another suggestion I forgot:

--Allow use of bee stingers upon arrows to make Tseramed arrows, OR allow a dialogue tree where you can give them to Tseramed in exchange for 1 Tseramed arrow each

Post by **marzo** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:06 pm

Making Geoffrey joinable will remain for the future; there should have to be a quest for a suitable replacement or his sense of duty would not allow him to leave.

As for bee stingers and Tseramed... well, he can do that already. He will make up to six bee stingers into arrows as long as he is in the party and you have less than six tseramed arrows. The conversation tree is a bit long (you have to ask about 'bees' before you can ask about the arrows), though, unless there are bees nearby.

SepiaAndDust · Post by **SepiaAndDust** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:09 pm

* As for importing SI items: that would be a big no; at least not with the same graphics. *

Chiming in with another "how come?" Is there a legal or technical issue in play here?

Earthquake Damage · Post by **Earthquake Damage** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:14 pm

"As for bee stingers and Tseramed... well, he can do that already. He will make up to six bee stingers into arrows as long as he is in the party and you have less than six tseramed arrows. The conversation tree is a bit long (you have to ask about 'bees' before you can ask about the arrows), though, unless there are bees nearby."

Seriously?! Please tell me this is a Keyring addition. If I managed to overlook something that awesome (I love the various magical arrows!) in the original for so long I might cry.

Post by **Dominus** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:40 pm

Seriously?! Please tell me this is a Keyring addition. If I managed to overlook something that awesome (I love the various magical arrows!) in the original for so long I might cry.

I second this

TDI · Post by **TDI** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:51 pm

Seriously?! Please tell me this is a Keyring addition. If I managed to overlook something that awesome (I love the various magical arrows!) in the original for so long I might cry.

I "third" this!

Post by **marzo** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:32 pm

Chiming in with another "how come?" Is there a legal or technical issue in play here?

Legal minefield, unless I make SI required for the Keyring mod and use Exult's runtime shape import to use the shapes. And I would still have to add some mechanisms for the latter, so you could say it is a technical issue too.

Seriously?! Please tell me this is a Keyring addition. If I managed to overlook something that awesome (I love the various magical arrows!) in the original for so long I might cry.

Hehe, almost 20 years later U7 *still* surprises people: Tseramed making his namesake arrows is actually in the *original* game!

Post by **Dominus** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:40 pm

he he, nice... two awesome news about this old game in a week

Paulon · Post by **Paulon** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:48 pm

It's been a _long_ time, but I seem to recall getting him to make me arrows once in the original, then never figuring out how to do it again. Of course since we're talking something like a couple of decades of time since then, I could be wrong in my memory.

Post by **marzo** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:53 pm

You are right, he does give you a dozen Tseramed arrows the first time around on that same conversation tree.

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:03 pm

Why would there be a copyright issue? They're made by the same company, published by the same company, and use the same game engine!

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:05 pm

Besides that, you already implemented the paperdolls from SI...

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:39 pm

I think I see what Marzo means here. Despite all the shared characteristics, Black Gate and Serpent Isle are separate copyrighted entities, which extends to the graphics and audio resources created for them. Taking resources from one to be used separately would be violating this copyright. As for the paperdolls, you can only use them in BG if you have SI installed and the location defined for Exult.

Post by **marzo** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:56 pm

The U7 and SI graphics are copyrighted, and distributing them without permission of the copyright holder (EA) is illegal. That is not up for debate.

Adding SI graphics to Keyring would be one in one of the following ways:
(a) Adding the graphics to the Keyring shape files. This is the only method available right now for the task. This would mean distributing copyrighted artwork.

(b) Adding mechanisms in Exult to dynamically import shapes from SI and for making Keyring require SI to be installed. This would be the technical limitation I talked about earlier. While there is already some code for importing shapes from SI (multiracial avatars, paperdolls and some gump shapes for paperdolls), these shapes cannot be placed in the game map and they are not used at all if SI is not found (the former is a consequence of the latter, actually).

Now, I am not keen on requiring SI for Keyring, unless I get some hard data that everyone playing it also has SI. TFL would be another mater, if it is to implement the SI storyline, and I may end up adding the mechanisms from (b) for it. That would mean distributing copyrighted artwork, which is the big no-no.

And in case you are wondering: Exult does not distribute any copyrighted art for implementing the SI paperdolls in BG: it dynamically loads the SI paperdol.vga file at runtime, and patches it with several *original* artwork done by several people (*and* the appropriate patch paperdol.vga, if any).

Moreover, I didn't implement the paperdolls, merely cleaned up the code a bit.

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:40 am

But surely we could at least implement the SI staff sprite. I mean, all the thing is is the fellowship staff at both ends. You could easily replicate it from scratch.
Also, my original thought about the SI imported items was that they would not actually occur in-game, but would be optional to implement via Alt-B or Exult Studio only. Perhaps that aspect could require SI.

Couple more minor ideas:

--Make bandages of the same frame stackable
--If the starburst thing is implemented, perhaps make gems of the same frame stackable. Certainly that would be nice after fighting dragons and drakes.

Post by **Malignant Manor** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:00 am

If you want the staff in The Keyring Mod, they you can easily put it in yourself.

You don't seem to understand that shapes have several files storing their info and all of this needs to be imported somehow. Marzo is busy with several Exult improvements at the moment too besides his mods and I'm sure he has a life. It's something he would like to have done but requires a lot of time.

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:28 am

Problem is I couldn't code **** if my life depended on it, otherwise I'd happily do it myself.

Post by **Malignant Manor** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:16 pm

You don't need to code to include the staff. Extract the shape from SI with ES. Have another instance of ES open so you can compare the data. Then just import the shape in The Keyring Mod and adjust the data of the new shape accordingly.

SepiaAndDust · Post by **SepiaAndDust** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:00 pm

Ok, so simply swiping the graphics from SI for use in BG is a copyright infringement (and vice versa, I assume). I can understand the reasoning, but the point had never crossed my mind before. Thanks!

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:47 pm

Alright so here's a lineup of my requests/ideas from most high priority to lowest (there are some new ones, too)

--A paperdoll for Geoffrey

Actually, that's the only high priority one.
Oh, and a request: don't make the quest for getting Geoffrey to join too lengthy (e.g. as lengthy as Mariah's or Gorn's.)

Low-priority requests:
--Quest to get Geoffrey to join (assuming the cheats still work in Keyring mod, I'm leaving this one as low priority)

If you look at the names of several items, it appears that it was meant for them to be stackable, but the programmers never coded it in. It would be nice to have most of them be stackable. Here's a list of the items that (by name) were meant to be stackable:

--Bandages (I think the reason this wasn't done is because there are multiple frames for the bandages. Perhaps we can set the roller bandage as the plural frame? It would be very nice to make them stackable!)
--Food Items (this would be nice, but would probably require some coding I'd guess)
--Gold Bars (interesting)
--Gold Nuggets (interesting)
--Potions (probably this was not implemented because there would be problems stacking them what with the different frames. I'm sure the geniuses coding here could find a way to make it work though)
--Smokebombs
--Spears (would be very nice)
--Throwing Axes (would be very nice)

Though Gems do not appear to have originally been planned to be stackable, it would also be nice.

Then misc. things:

--Allow the enchant spell to recharge wands and Firedoom staff, maybe 5-10 charges per pop.
--Perhaps make it possible to create starbursts by "enchanting" gems
--Name the individual items that are named in SI bug not BG such as the buckets, kitchen items, the potted plants, the pots (one of them is named) and utensils.
--We need a magic spear. It wouldn't be difficult to make the paperdoll and sprite for it (it should be glowing blue and white of course) Should be a thrown and returnable weapon. Attack power bet. 8-10.

PAPERDOLLS
Most of this is minor stuff. Perhaps, if I can remember how to tweak with the paperdolls, I can make some of these alterations someday myself and submit them... (though unfortunately, I kinda suck at photoshop and find MS paint to be much easier)
Aside from the fire sword, which greatly annoys me, these are all minimum priority, really.
--When I made the fire sword paperdoll for BG years ago, I messed up and forgot to alter one of the pixels on the upper right

Someone needs to fix that, but I get a feeling it'll have to be me somehow.
--The right bit for the magic axe needs to be reduced to a sideways-V
--Throwing axe should... be altered to look more like the BG sprite frame. Yeah, I don't have a good visual picture of it, either.
--The belt frame for the cleaver needs a sheath. I'm serious, guys. No sane person is going to run around with a very sharp object dangling from their belt. It would be a wallet-like sheath with a hole in the right side to slide over the blade, if you need a visual image. There would be a fold at the open end, sewn in place.
--Perhaps I'm being pedantic as a nature nut, but the hawk looks wrong. The bellies of hawks usually are paler than the rest of their bodies. The belly should be whitish/light gray with gray or (prefferably) brown speckles. Also, a lot of hawks either have a yellow beak or a yellow beak with a black tip.
--This is super-duper low priority, but at least in the original BG, I remember lightsources appearing on your sprite when placed in the paperdoll's hand. Again, this is just a 'maybe someday' thing.

Alright, that's all I can think of.

Earthquake Damage · Post by **Earthquake Damage** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:43 am

Gorn can join the party? Wha?

Crysta the Elf · Post by **Crysta the Elf** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:02 pm

My throwing axe isn't good enough?

And I didn't think the cleaver NEEDED a sheath.. it's not something a normal warrior would be "running around with", its a cooking/butchering implement. Still better than the spatula it was before, too.

Damn it.. why did you have to make me look at my work from then.. now i'm not gonna be able to keep myself from reworking it again.. x.x

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:46 am

Personally I would be happy if Gorn just had some new dialogue after destroying the Cube Generator.

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:37 pm

As would I, but he's your old companion; if Mariah is to be joinable in Keyring Mod, so should Geoffrey and Gorn. Geoffrey should be made joinable first, though!

""My throwing axe isn't good enough?

""
Oh, I guess I haven't looked at it. I'll do that soon and get back to you, sorry.

""Still better than the spatula it was before, too.""
Oh, certainly it is. I remember how it used to look back in 02-03 or so.

""it's not something a normal warrior would be "running around with", its a cooking/butchering implement.""
If you go to a store (IRL that is), you will find that cleavers, at least quality ones, come with sheaths. Same with knives.

Crysta the Elf · Post by **Crysta the Elf** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:09 pm

Mine is the one in there now...

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 11:34 pm

Two more minor requests:

Fix the kidney belt and Chain Mail so that their stats are the same as in SI's In BG, the Chainmail and Scale Mail are identical; in SI the Chainmail weighs 7.0 stones and offers 3 points of protection instead of 2. In BG the Kidney Belt is broken and doesn't offer any protection.

Oh, and make it so that you can wear both a neck item (amulet, collar/gorget) and cloak at the same time, and also make it so you can wear gloves/gauntlets and rings at the same time, like in SI. Assuming none of this hasn't already been done.

Post by **Malignant Manor** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:02 pm

This is a bug but, you can put on gloves in BG while wearing rings if you have SI Paperdolls enabled and

add this to paperdol_info.txt %%section items:

Code: Select all

#	GLOVES

#	Leather
:579/		-1/	1/	16/	0/	0/	47/	0/	1/	2
#	Gauntlets
:580/		-1/	1/	16/	0/	0/	25/	0/	1/	2
#	Magic Gauntlets
:835/		-1/	1/	16/	0/	0/	70/	0/	1/	2

It just doesn't fit as easily.

I assumed when he made all ready types the same usecode value in both games, he made cloaks set to use the neck spot and bg gloves still use the left finger while allowing the glove and cloak spot to work the same way as SI but I was wrong.

Post by **marzo** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:40 pm

This is a bug but, you can put on gloves in BG while wearing rings if you have SI Paperdolls enabled and add this to paperdol_info.txt %%section items:

That particular bug will be fixed on the next snapshot.

I assumed when he made all ready types the same usecode value in both games

Given that doing that would just break both games, I have to say that is not what I did at all. No, Exult uses the same value *internally* for both games, but the usecode values are different -- an extension of the original values, in fact.

he made cloaks set to use the neck spot and bg gloves still use the left finger while allowing the glove and cloak spot to work the same way as SI but I was wrong.

That is indeed what I did, you aren't wrong; mostly, this was done so that Exult kept supporting BG. There is a final check to see if the object has any paperdoll defined for the destination spot, but that is just to prevent some strange BG cases such as apples being in your backpack spot (which *does* happen in the original BG, mind you, but was silly enough that they changed what spot 0 meant for SI to prevent it).

Post by **Malignant Manor** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:11 pm

I meant unified ready types instead of usecode values.

I don't see how adding the two optional slots properly would break BG. They would just appear at around the heart button if BG paperdoll styles are switched to. Cloaks are technically broken anyway since they aren't using the torso slot. Usecode values aren't used for gloves in BG are they?

Post by **marzo** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:25 pm

I don't see how adding the two optional slots properly would break BG.

The slots can be used with no problems in BG with the proper ready type and paperdoll data; but switching the usecode ready types (as opposed to the internal ready types) would break the game (which is what I was referring to).

They would just appear at around the heart button if BG paperdoll styles are switched to.

I am adding something to that effect in the modifications I am making, but I have to finish them before I can find a proper place for the spots.

Cloaks are technically broken anyway since they aren't using the torso slot.

Technically, BG cloaks should go to the torso, yes; they do in the original, after all. That is, they should use the armor slot instead of the neck, which is kind of silly ("I can't wear plate armor because I wearing a cloak").

But for quite some time now, Exult has placed BG cloaks in the neck spot, and I followed suit. The reason they go into the neck slot instead of into the armor slot is that they have an alternate spot set to neck and have no paperdoll defined for the body; hence they don't normally go into the torso.

So they aren't "broken", they have been intentionally changed from the original.

Post by **Malignant Manor** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:31 pm

There isn't a good spot while still using the current BG style paperdolls. How about having the cloak being rendered in the neck slot before the neck item is rendered. The gloves could be rendered above or below the ring.

Post by **marzo** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:35 pm

I also thought about that; maybe shifting it a few pixels up, down, left or right from the corresponding spot. Like I said, I have to finalize the changes before I can look into a proper place for them.

Post by **Malignant Manor** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:43 pm

For the ring, it would probably be best since it would likely be harder to see. I'm not sure about the amulet since which would be better, covering up the character or having the items not overlapping?

Post by **marzo** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:48 pm

I was thinking of really a few pixels; maybe 2-3 pixels at most. Probably not enough to cover the character, but enough that an object need not cover the other completely.

alagner · Post by **alagner** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:36 pm

Guys, one more thing - how about fixing Royal Orchards generating bread? It's a still present remnant from the original BG, am I right?

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:44 pm

Some of the eggs don't seem to work right now in the snapshot; mainly the bread egg you just mentioned, and the ginseng egg between Deep Forest and Spiritwood.

Post by **marzo** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:15 pm

Some of the eggs don't seem to work right now in the snapshot

Is that a Keyring bug or a general BG bug? If the latter, can you submit a bug report with a save near one such egg?

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:35 pm

General BG. Though admittedly I haven't downloaded the LATEST snapshot, either.

alagner · Post by **alagner** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:58 pm

>>General BG.
You mean general Exult or general-original?
I've checked it recently under Dosbox and it's also in the original BG [I mean the swapped bread/apples]

Baskar RuneScythe · Post by **Baskar RuneScythe** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:15 am

I've been a lurker here on this forum for a long, long time...but if anyone's taking requests, I have but one thing to say and hope you get it.

*munches on some cheese*

Oblivious · Post by **Oblivious** » Sat May 16, 2009 4:43 pm

Oh, and one more I just thought up. Maybe this has already been done:

Modify the dialogue trees of healers, shopwrights, shipwrights, etc. so that after you initiate the proper dialogue tree the first time, they immediately offer to buy/sell from you when you talk to them again, rather than force you to initiate the whole dialogue tree (exception perhaps being the mages when they're crazy, as that would add a nice touch)

Kensu · Post by **Kensu** » Sat May 16, 2009 5:20 pm

>Hehe, almost 20 years later U7 *still* surprises people: Tseramed making >his namesake arrows is actually in the *original* game!

I bet there are still people out there who don't know that Gwenno can join the party in SI. (you have to wait until after Dupre is dead, though, which is pointless since you get in exactly one battle (the ice golems) after that.)

Wizardry Dragon · Post by **Wizardry Dragon** » Sun May 17, 2009 12:58 am

... I actually didn't know that, myself.

Post by **Malignant Manor** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:33 am

Allow people to add keys to the keyring by targeting it with a key.
I noticed it lacked this when testing it out with Dev Game.

--- C:/DOCUME~1/Owner/LOCALS~1/Temp/keyring.uc-revBASE.svn000.tmp.uc Sat Jul 11 07:27:02 2009
+++ C:/SVN/midi_sfx/content/bgkeyring/src/items/keyring.uc Sat Jul 11 07:26:50 2009
@@ -244,6 +244,11 @@
}
return;
}
+ else if (target->get_item_shape() == SHAPE_KEY)
+ {
+ get_keyring()->add_to_keyring(item, target);
+ return;
+ }

KeyInternal(target,
get_keyring()->is_on_keyring(target->get_item_quality()),