[half OT] Oblivion

[Andrea B Previtera]

So we have Oblivion now. Gaming magazines have been talking about it for two years, releasing terrific screenshots which displayed plain incredible graphics. They teased us with the promises of the Radiant A.I. engine, something that would have breathed life into the world. They shown genuine enthusiasm toward the introduction of sophisticated physics simulation in a RPG.

I look at Ultima 7 and I see a game which was ten years ahead of the various SSI stuff that dominated the scene in the early '90s, I look at Oblivion and I see one of those games, only with incredible graphics - and my main point here is that all that graphics aren't a benefit, but a serious con. Why?

When you play Ultima 7, the cartoonish (yet solid) graphics keep you partly "detached" from the world. Ok there are glasses and dishes in a pub, but you don't expect to be able to smash them. They're nice to see, it's nice that you can take them away and that the barman can become upset and call guards, but it's still a bunch of pixels - you *feel* there are limitations behind it, and you accept them. Oblivion glasses and dishes, with reflective textures and trasparency, shininess etc., literally jump out from the screen. They're are *real*. And then, there is the physics engine - you can throw things, see them rolling, bumping. So you're quickly filled with expectations - and you quickly fall into a pit of delusion. You can't smash glass, you can throw stuff around but the barman won't get upset at all.

The hyper-realism backfires, and it's not just in the small things: characters are almost photorealistic, they can frown, smile, range through many expressions - they sport smooth animations and incredibile texture detail... but the conversation is still a choice of a couple phrases. Their schedule is less complex and realistic than Ultima 7's. They still won't care if you kill their pets before their eyes or if you throw a barrel on their head.

So why in first place you give me the option of throwing that barrel, all that freedom, if then it's purely for a vain aesthetic purpose? Why do you tease me with unexpressed potentials? Ultima 7, instead, was a perfect balance of possibilities.. and the unavoidable constraints.

[Wizardry Dragon]

Err ... this is a forum for Exult development and discussion, not rants (or even raves) about other games.

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Peter M Dodge aka Wizardry Dragon
Lead Designer
Ultima VII: The Feudal Lands

[Andrea B Previtera]

Yes Wizardry, thanks, I know. That's why I added "Half OT". Aside from Exult itself, this forum has been the cradle to many passionate talks about Ultima 7 for a long time - and more than a post on Oblivion, this is a a post about why U7 still stands againist the strength of time and the lure of beautiful graphics.

Feel free to delete the post though

[wjp]

A couple of half-OT threads every once in a while really is no problem.

[drcode]

Besides, comparing another game to U7 isn't totally off-topic.

[MeddlingMonk]

I don't contribute much here (apart from very rare bug threads) but I Andrea has a very good point. No game (despite the Origin motto) can make an entire world, just a part of one. A hint, if you will. The benefit of graphics that aren't anywhere near photo-realistic is that it's easier to take the necessary limits of the game environment as just a suggestion of a larger world; so it's not a problem that in Ultimas 1-IV that shopkeepers are imprisoned behind their counters for all enternity or that in Ultima VII a transdimensional being is invading a world populated by only a couple dozen people (I exagerate). The way these games are presented implies more and you're only seeing the parts that are most important to gameplay. I don't object to high-quality graphics per se, but I don't think the games they are supposed to be supporting and keeping pace. Clearly, I think, these days most games are being carried by graphics. So it's nice to be able to fire up Exult and still play a game that keeps everything in balance.

[Kensu]

You're quite right. The trouble with replicating reality is that it takes that much effort on the player's part to play the game. Removing that layer of abstraction of a bad thing, I think.
Now, I'm not the kind of old fogey who claims that games like Tempest are superior to such classics as Symphony of The Night or Crystalis, but I do think that simplicity of play, and the ability to start and stop at any time is a very valuable asset.
I just got the Godfather, and was rather irked about the complexity of the fighting controls. Do we really need to be able to slam people up against walls, hold them off the ground with one hand and beat them with the other? It's hilarious considering how primitive the weapon system is compared to games like KOTOR II or even Ultima 7.
To tell the absolute truth, I think the Infinity Engine was the end-all be-all of RPG engines. The graphics are still remarkable after all these years, and it has one honey of an interface.
(of course I'm probably prejudice, I like Planescape:Torment even more than U7!)
[speaking of primitive weapon systems, any news on a Savage Empire Online?]

[SB-X]

Never played TES. I'm more eager to see Gothic 3.

[TdI]

I'm also a big Elder Scrolls fan and I had to get Oblivion of course (and a new graphics card just to play that game... :\ ). I can see the point you are trying to make, Andrea, and it has also come to my attention. The graphics sometimes make you expect more realistic feedback, but the game often fails to deliver at this point.
I also often wonder why no game to date has ever achieved or even improved on Ultima 7 scheduling and realistic NPC behaviour. I mean, if Origin did it over 10 years ago, why cant anyone else do it?

I still love playing Oblivion. I'm not far into the game yet, but the longer I play, the more I like it. There are even some things that are better in Oblivion than they where in Ultima, like meeting people travelling in between cities and horseback riding.

I'm also keen on seeing Gothic 3. I also love the Gothic games. Where the Elder Scrolls focuses on the big picture and the vastness of the game world, Gothic goes into the detail. But I enjoy both systems alot, they kind of complement each other.

[Wizardry Dragon]

Now if someone could marry Gothic, TES, and Ultima VII, we'd be in heaven ^_~

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Peter M Dodge aka Wizardry Dragon
Lead Designer,
Ultima VII: The Feudal Lands

[Dominus]

I already played some hours of Oblivion and I'm not even halfway to that city where you continue the main quest. Exploring the world is really nice, seeing the places and so on. A let down is that the little caves or ruins with monsters almost look the same all the time.
And mor onto Andrea's point, I really wonder that a character can swim in the water AND use his weapons and shields at the same time. Even my fully cheated (yes, I cheat, I don't like fighting, I want the story without spending hours to level my character up) should not be able to swim with his plate armor on (or even with much in his backpack).

[Wizardry Dragon]

It's better than Daggerfall at least where if you didn't take swimming as a major you were shark food. I'd rather the Oblivion easy extreme than the Daggerfall impossibly hard extreme ^_~

-----------
Peter M Dodge aka Wizardry Dragon
Lead Designer,
Ultima VII: The Feudal Lands

[TdI]

> I really wonder that a character can swim in the water AND use his weapons and shields at the same time

this superloaded warrior in full plate armour taking a swim in the lake phenomenon, is an issue with lots of games... in Gothic 1 you could literally pick up everything that wasnt bolted to the ground without ever getting encumbered.

>Exploring the world is really nice

Yeah, I'm not the kind of gamer who tends to look primarily at the graphics, but Oblivion is so beautiful, I find myself stopping all the time just to enjoy the view

>Now if someone could marry Gothic, TES, and Ultima VII, we'd be in heaven ^_~

Oh yes...

[Daemongar]

Oddly, the only game to work within that parameter - heavy armor makes you sink faster - is U9. I really like Oblivion, since you can really just explore and look around. One thing I liked about U9 was the beautiful music, with the sun rising, as I ran along a beach. Think of Magincia with the Shepherd and sheep. After the wolves and buzzards were dead, it was one of the most peaceful places to be.

I agree with what you say, Andrea - a remarkable game has a lot beyond graphics. I bought Civ3 and Civ4, but still find myself playing Civ2 more than either. Just my thing, I gess.

[PanSola]

Haven't played Oblivion, but the post-release descriptions had led me to expect a scheduling system and AI *better* than U7's. That was enough to entice me to try it out.

Well, now that I find out from you guys that U7's is actually better, I guess I won't bother afterall.

Just wondering though, is the game engine of Oblivion's at least capable of doing U7-level scheduling and the developers just didn't go into that much detail, or not?

[Wizardry Dragon]

Honestly I think it's akin to comparing oranges and apples - the goals of Ultima VII development and that of Oblivions development were entirely different. Really, eschew scheduling. It's FUN. And that, in my opinion, is the only element that's important. Everything else is just icing on the cake.

--------
Peter M Dodge aka Wizardry Dragon
Lead Designer,
Ultima VII: The Feudal Lands

[Garrett]

Oblivion's engine is definitely capable of scheduling. Heck, even Morrowind could do it (and has done it, thanks to modders).

This time around they were evidently trying to get their Radiant AI to create a lifelike and dynamic feel, as evidenced by farmers actually farming without a preset schedule.

U7's NPCs feel lifelike at first, but once you look at the code you realise they're simply being led by the nose through each new activity. Bethesda tried to make their NPCs able to "think" about what to do next, and achieve it all by themselves. And, based on what I've heard, they didn't entirely fail either.

[Gradilla Dragon_]

NPCs are lifelike in U7 not because of the scheduling, but the small details put in their conversation scripts. They express their inner feelings to you. Just by reading the Trinsic Mayor's conversation you get an idea of how he feels about the city, the expectations he had, and a lot of other things. You rarely see that in other RPGs and that's what make the difference, not the scheduling.

[drcode]

U7 has enough text to fill a novel. People expect modern games to have voices for all the conversations, and I'd guess that's why they have so much less detail. I wouldn't mind if a game had voice-acting for the start of each conversation, and then just text for the rest.

[Kensu]

The trouble with U7's conversations was that they weren't very realistic.
"Hello." "Oh, hello." "Name." "I am so-and-so, I have lived in this town all my life, and so found it strange when strangers appeared in the night, and the next morning the blacksmith was dead, and by the way that the was the same night that big ship sailed towards New Magincina." "What strangers?"

I'm exaggerating, but not by much. Do you know how much Marsten tells you in the catacombs in SI before he even bothers to ask you who you are?
U8 actually had better conversations, though a lot of people bitched about the brevity.

Personally, I'd prefer a few good characters and a bunch of "background noise" characters who really don't want to waste their time talking to strangers, than making a whole town of people who reveal the most intimate details of their life to someone they just met, and might not even like.

I know I'm drifting off the point here, god forbid we go OnT.

[Dominus]

Oblivion has a really nice mod integration, btw