Feudal Lands, II

Post by **wjp** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:06 pm

Started a new thread because of the length of the previous one:

http://exult.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=27637#p27637

Wizardry Dragon · Post by **Wizardry Dragon** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:18 pm

Sweet, now I get bold text!

A revised introduction from our forum. (The Feudal Lands forum: http://www.lfs.lfhost.com/tfl_forum/index.php)

What is the Feudal Lands?
A question I've got more than a few times ^_~

The Feudal Lands is an extension of Ultima VII: The Black Gate
Although it will also include Ultima VII: Serpent Isle, Ultima VII: The Feudal Lands is built off the Black Gate. This is mostly because the BG intrinsics are the ones I am most familiar with in usecode.

The Feudal Lands is an Exult mod.
And likewise, requires Exult to run.

The Feudal Lands reintroduces the Virtues to Ultima VII
Unlike other Ultima series games, Ultima VII never had a karma or virtue system. The Feudal Lands will include an extensive Virtue system much alike to the one from Ultime IV: Quest of the Avatar.

The Feudal Lands reinvents the Ultima VII spell system
In Ultima VII, as a part of the story, you did not have any party members that could cast spells; however, when you overcame this barrier in the original, you could still not have spellcasting party members. The Feudal Lands changes this; the Avatar's old spellcasting companion Mariah can join and cast spells, as can Jaana, and even have unique spells. As well, spellcasting is restored to classes that had lost it since Ultima 4, including the Paladin and Tinker.

The Feudal Lands, as it's name implies, adds a whole new world to Ultima VII
In a sense, the Feudal Lands is much a remake of Ultima IV: The Quest of the Avatar. The Lands of the Feudal Lords finds its way back into the Ultima mythos; a place where the Quest of the Avatar endures. New places, enemies and allies alike abound.

The Feudal Lands adds an epic sense to the world of Ultima VII
Clashes against epic foes, foiling the mechanations of evil spellcasters, and fighting against great evils are found once again in an Ultima, something (IMHO) not seen since Ultima III: Exodus.

~ Wizardry Dragon

Neutronium Dragon · Post by **Neutronium Dragon** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:48 pm

> the Paladin and Tinker.

The tinker? I don't recall them being spellcasters originally. Mage, Bard, Druid, Paladin, and Ranger were the ones with casting power, I think.

Neutronium Dragon

Wizardry Dragon · Post by **Wizardry Dragon** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:09 pm

Tinkers had some spellcasting power. Just not an awful lot of it. IMHO though, how do you think they forge magic arms and armor in U4? ^_~

~ Wizardry Dragon

Post by **marzo** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:16 pm

The tinker? I don't recall them being spellcasters originally.

I had the same recollection as you. But then I decided to check it out, and fired up U4. To my surprise, tinkers *do* cast spells in U4...

Wizardry Dragon · Post by **Wizardry Dragon** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:29 pm

See? Im not *totally* insane ^_~

~ Wizardry Dragon

Wizardry Dragon · Post by **Wizardry Dragon** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:12 pm

The ground work of the karma system is (finally) finished and working ... check it ou in the latest snapshot:

http://www.lfs.lfhost.com/tfl_forum/vie ... ?p=152#152

~ Wizardry Dragon

Wizardry Dragon · Post by **Wizardry Dragon** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:40 pm

Something I'd like to solicit some public feedback on:

In what specific instances in normal U7:TBG would you consider increasing/decreasing the Virtues of the Avatar?

~ Wizardry Dragon

MV · Post by MV » Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:10 pm

Decresing is too easy, so I'll put some increasing ones:

1. When you rescue the baby from the harpies.

2. When you promise to keep secrets, (like the sideshow guy and nells' baby, the little girl and the gargoyle she visits), etc.

3. When you do reconciliation tasks, like between the bank woman and her husband that wants to be a pirate, and busting the mayor and his affair with the museum curator, etc.

4. Other things like clearing Tobias' name with the serpent venom..

5. Telling the truth to people.

6. General side quests like the statue in serpents hold, and the sprellic incident in jeholm, the boat builder in minoc.

MV · Post by MV » Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:16 pm

Oh yea, was anything going to be done with stonegate? I'd like to see something done with it. All that swamp land.........

Crysta the Elf · Post by **Crysta the Elf** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:07 pm

Stonegate is fine as it is, even if its crumbled into the swamp

Azulmagia · Post by **Azulmagia** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:30 pm

Also, it seems there are limited ways to increase your karma, and unlimited to decrease it. Is that so? I ask this to know if there's a way to "screw up" your chances to max your karma in a game.

MV · Post by MV » Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:29 pm

Well, how about when the guardian tells you to go in and tell them you are the avatar... (the pub in the desert town in reference to the angry gargoyles).

1. You know the guardian is telling you, so it would be a bad thing to say you are.

2. You would be lying to the gargoyles if you didn't say you were the avatar.

That's a pretty screwed up honesty virtue problem right there.

Also there's somewhere else (I just can't recall right now), that the guy is pissed off about the fake avatar and he asks who you are. But I think that might give the option of telling your name.

And speaking of which, there is another place in the game you are given the choice of giving a false name, actually, I think this is one and the same, and it's in buccaneers den with one of the pirates, blacktooth I think.

Azulmagia · Post by **Azulmagia** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:58 pm

I think the angry gargoyles just demand to know -who- you are. In that case, giving your name would be an honest answer, and it's virtuous to avoid the battle.

Well, then again, i also enjoy killing the dude who stole Lap-lem's jewel. I always make it look like an accident (involving cannons, or some form of explosives usually) and i think i'm pretty virtuous for it.

Enderandrew · Post by **Enderandrew** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:05 pm

As far as I can remember (in my current sleep deprived state) the lands seperated before LB came up with the virtues. The virtues weren't invented until Ultima IV.

Given that there is no real travel or communication between the four seperated lands, why would the land of Feudal Lords use LB's 8 virtue system? How did they learn about it?

I think it is a question worth tackling.

And while I want to see this finished before you get buried in a huge project, I would like to see the fourth land added some day as well.

I always imagined the Land of the Dark Unknown to be a high magic area of Sosaria where the various races from earlier Ultimas still live on, as well as strong fantasy villians like Mondain.

You mention that an Ultima game hasn't had a strong villian since Ultima III, but I'd argue that the Shadowlords were powerful villians in Ultima V.

Crysta the Elf · Post by **Crysta the Elf** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:22 am

about the virtues... how about we just say a wizard did it

TdI · Post by **TdI** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:44 am

I guess this whole virtue-thing means I'll have to return Morphins serpent venom in the future.

Some more suggestions for Virtue

+ Selling venom to the apothecary could increase virtue. (compassion/honesty) This would make extra-sense, if someone wrote a mod, where you can also sell Venom to the mines in Minoc or Vesper for 100 gold (double amount), which would come with a virtue penalty.

+ Killing badies (of course) (valor)

- Killing innocents (valor)

+ Maybe some of the virtue lost when killing innocents should be restored if you res them. (compassion)

-Maybe letting one of your party be killed should come with a virtue penalty. Especially in case of Spark, which would actually be a reason not to allow him into your party. After all, he is a kid. (And Iolos warning would make some sense). I know, in U4 you get a Sacrifice bonus for loosing party members, but this doesnt seem right. I think this bonus should only apply if the Avatar himself dies.

+Healing your comrades after battle(?) (Compassion)

- playing at the house of games (?) (Honesty/Honor)

- joining the Fellowship (?) after all, you don`t HAVE to do that to win, even though the plot follows this line. And it doesnt seem the right thing to do either.

-killing Fellowship fanatics at endgame (there`s also kids among them). They are so weak, you could also evade them or put them to sleep. After all, they are just victims of the Fellowship (Honor/Valor)

-Killing animals and NOT taking the meat. Okay, maybe this is stressing the point

but it makes sense. Could be hard to implement though.

-casting "evil" death spells (?)

+baking bread (humility)

and picking eggs

TdI · Post by **TdI** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:48 am

Its funny how all these ways of affecting Virtue already seem to be in place, as if they actually intended to have Virtue, and discarded it again at some point.

Post by **artaxerxes** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:50 am

let's list the virtues for fun:

* valor
* honesty
* compassion
* justice
* sacrifice
* honor
* spirituality
* humility

sacrifice, you could increase it by giving money to the beggars (now, where did I see that before?)

spirituality, you should meditate at the shrine and strive to attain all spells from the spellbook (it shows you care about it)

humility, tasks like transporting the pumpinks as asked by the farmer eastside of Britain

compassion, strive to fulfill all the side-quests (showing you care for the Britanians)

Artaxerxes

1010101 · Post by **1010101** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:41 am

Hehehehehe...

I read TdI's post above and when I got to this line:

+ Killing badies (of course) (valor)

I thought it said this:

+ Killing babies (of course) (valor)

I was sitting here thinking, "How is killing babies valorous?!?!?!"

Post by **drcode** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:56 am

I remember playing U4 and running away from a couple battles. Then when I talked to the fellow who tells you your status, he called me a "craven coward":-)

Wizardry Dragon · Post by **Wizardry Dragon** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:38 am

Etherandrew - the sundering accoured after Lord British established the Virtues, but far before the Stranger was summoned by him to the Land.

As for some of the answers:

Maybe letting one of your party be killed should come with a virtue penalty. Especially in case of Spark, which would actually be a reason not to allow him into your party. After all, he is a kid. (And Iolos warning would make some sense). I know, in U4 you get a Sacrifice bonus for loosing party members, but this doesnt seem right. I think this bonus should only apply if the Avatar himself dies.

It'd depends. You don't neccesarily let Dupre die in SI, but that's still sacrifice. Also, there will be a few situations where you can choose to protect a party member (+sacrifice +honor +valor) and a few instances where its not the most jsut thing to do (-justice -honor)

casting "evil" death spells (?)

Minus on the Spirituality side.

joining the Fellowship (?)

Minus on the Spirituality and overall karma side. Also, there will be an entire 'evil' story based on that added in, just as joining the Oppression in U5 ^_~

I think the angry gargoyles just demand to know -who- you are. In that case, giving your name would be an honest answer, and it's virtuous to avoid the battle.

But not very valliant ^_~

Crysta - meddle not in the affairs of wizards, for thou'rt tasty when fried with a fireball. xD

~ Wizardry Dragon

Crysta the Elf · Post by **Crysta the Elf** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:29 am

uh.. LB established the Virtues just before U4 man... the sundering happened at the end of U1

Wizardry Dragon · Post by **Wizardry Dragon** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:48 am

Not accoriding to the Ultima manual in my hands

Although I have to say, the continuity isn't overly great; many sources disagree as to what happened.

But, there are other explanations for the Virtues being present in the Feudal Lands, which I'd say, but it'd be a *huge* spoiler.

~ Wizardry Dragon

Post by **marzo** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:59 pm

That manual must not be very accurate then

More seriously, that manual directly contradicts SI, so that if you go with it you will have to make *substantial* changes to the SI storyline.

Wizardry Dragon · Post by **Wizardry Dragon** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:04 pm

Like I said, I do have a story that ties it together, but I'm not going to give away any spoilers ^_~

~ Wizardry Dragon

Crysta the Elf · Post by **Crysta the Elf** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:09 pm

which manual is it?

CheshireKatt · Post by **CheshireKatt** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:52 pm

One thought:

- playing at the house of games (?) (Honesty/Honor)

Gambling itself is neither dishonorable nor dishonest.

Cheating to win would be both dishonest and dishonorable, but you can't cheat in the house of games (technically -- you can by reloading, but the karma system wouldn't be able to catch that) -- while you can wear a fellowship medallion to double your payoffs, that's simply a house rule for fellowship members.

Wizardry Dragon · Post by **Wizardry Dragon** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:53 pm

You can cheat at the rat race. Doing so would be dishonest. I wouldnt consider it dishonourable (unless you vowed to play honestly). But I would consider it unjust.

~ Wizardry Dragon

TdI · Post by **TdI** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:30 pm

>Gambling itself is neither dishonorable nor dishonest.

I wasn't going to move into a discussion about the ethics of gambling. I was rather thinking around the lines of the guys running the House of Games being pirates sponsored by the Fellowship. Possibly even counterfaiters, because of the "Fellowship-member" bonus, but this last part is speculation.

CheshireKatt · Post by **CheshireKatt** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:44 pm

>You can cheat at the rat race.

Oh yeah -- forgot about resetting it. Although that's more likely a bug needing fixed than a way to cheat -- the idea of a game of chance with a "no, this was only a practice run" button is rather odd.

>I was rather thinking around the lines of the guys running the House of
>Games being pirates sponsored by the Fellowship.

Do any of the virtues really apply here, though? Would it be unvirtuous to stay in an inn run by a fellowship member in good standing? Or, for that matter, one run by an ex-pirate (it's pretty obvious to me the guys in the House of Games don't exactly sail the high seas anymore)?

Of course, the logic of "spending money that the Fellowship might put to unvirtuous ends" does have merit.

>Possibly even counterfaiters, because of the "Fellowship-member"
>bonus, but this last part is speculation.

True, their ability to conjure endless stacks of gold from the ether is rather sketchy, but also raises ethical questions about the False Coin spell in SI -- is the mere act of casting the spell unvirtuous (or perhaps you simply just want to decorate the Dark Path with stacks of Filari)? Or does it require action (spending on unsuspecting shopkeepers) to be unvirtuous?

Azulmagia · Post by **Azulmagia** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:30 pm

Quote

Given that there is no real travel or communication between the four seperated lands, why would the land of Feudal Lords use LB's 8 virtue system? How did they learn about it?

Internet.

Sebastian · Post by **Sebastian** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:13 pm

Hmm, no "real" travel maybe, but there may be the odd traveller between the worlds...

About the virtues, bragging about being the Avatar when introducing yourself doesn't really show a lot of humility, now, does it?

Oh, I remember a brief discussion back in the first thread about some Asiatic background for the Lands of the Feudal Lords (an UO idea which was discarded here - even though I think Chrysta's suggestion was really neat, and the idea really good - no reconsidering, Wizardry Dragon

?). It's probably just living amongst the remnants of the glorious days of Rajputs and Mughals (which were all about honour and valour, and really not at all concerned with compassion or humility!) here in India, but in my eyes, an Oriental setting would be really cool and fit in well with the intended epic war setting, I know it's not going to happen in this mod, but still images of the Amber or Jodhpur forts in an Ultima game are...well, enticing...

It's so wonderful that these two mods (Keyring and TFL) are so passionately worked on. Fanatastic work, you guys, the only reason I CAN wait to play these mods at all is that there is still Lazarus bug hunting to keep me busy

!

Neutronium Dragon · Post by **Neutronium Dragon** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:21 pm

> casting "evil" death spells (?)

I don't think that any of these were considered evil or affected your karma in previous games, so I don't see why they'd do so now.

Granted, Armageddon might qualify, but if you've cast that then virtue is no longer much of a concern.

Neutronium Dragon

Enderandrew · Post by **Enderandrew** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:02 am

I think the Ultima cannon is pretty clear that the Virtue system is brand new in Ultima IV. That is the whole point of the game, that you are the first to master this brand new system.

The sundering was ages before then.

If you don't want to reveal if for spoilers, that's cool and all. But suggesting that the virtues were around well before the sundering will no doubt annoy the lore fanatics.

Enderandrew · Post by **Enderandrew** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:02 am

Oh, and given the fact that not only do Kilrathi ships appear in UVII, but the "Pirate Warez Hut", maybe they do have internet access.

Ether Wifi

Wizardry Dragon · Post by **Wizardry Dragon** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:19 am

There are at least a handful of interdimensional/lands/whatever travellers in Ultima: the Avatar, some of his/her companions, Lord British, the Guardian, and Hawkwind. And thats as far as I go into any explanation ^_~

~ Wizardry Dragon

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:51 am

Yeah, especially in Ultima Underworld 2 there were several persons who were aware of the existence of other dimensions and had the capability to communicate between them, if not travel.

WWWWolf · Post by **WWWWolf** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:02 pm

Ether Wifi? Wasn't there an old joke about mages using the web in Ultima Online through the Ether-Net? Oh well, as they say, you've got to move with the times =)

enderandrew · Post by **enderandrew** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:29 pm

Can you imagine the Slashdot effect on ether?

Maybe that is what REALLY caused the teleportation storms!

Wizardry Dragon · Post by **Wizardry Dragon** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:46 pm

I keep hearing good things about UW2, and its the only Ultima game I havent played.

~ Wizardry Dragon

Crysta the Elf · Post by **Crysta the Elf** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:59 pm

then play it

Wizardry Dragon · Post by **Wizardry Dragon** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:10 pm

I havent been able to get my hands on a copy of it, else I would. And since paypal doesnt like me, I cant use the ether-net to get a copy

~ Wizardry Dragon

Enderandrew · Post by **Enderandrew** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:57 pm

What about:

Escape from Mount Drash
Ultima:Dark Core
Ultima Runes of Virtue
Ultima Runes of Virtue 2
Worlds of Ultima: Savage Empire
Worlds of Ultima: Martian Dreams

Wizardry Dragon · Post by **Wizardry Dragon** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:27 am

Dark Core is a fan-fic game, no? But yes, I've played it. I have Savage Empire and Martian Dreams (indeed, one of the main quests is inspired by Martian Dreams) and I supoose -I- dont -have- Runes of Virtue and 2 or Mt. Drash, but my better half does ^_~

~ Wizardry Dragon

Wizardry Dragon · Post by **Wizardry Dragon** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:52 pm

I gave the Feudal Lands forum a -HUGE- facelift, check it out:

http://www.lfs.lfhost.com/tfl_forum/index.php

^___^

~ Wizardry Dragon

Wizardry Dragon · Post by **Wizardry Dragon** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:40 pm

To have released a new snapshot:

http://www.lfs.lfhost.com/tfl_forum/vie ... ?p=262#262

(To have spent to much time in the Lazarus forums. To now be stuck talking like a gargoyle xD )

~ Wizardry Dragon

SoulFrost · Post by **SoulFrost** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:35 pm

Will you still receive virtue if you complete a sub-quest which also gives gain to the Avatar, such as money, magic, or information? Is it virtuous to do the right thing in order to further your own interests? Questions like this are why I love Ultima!

Wizardry Dragon · Post by **Wizardry Dragon** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:17 pm

A new snapshot will come out soon, with the base landscaping for the Lands of the Feudal Lords completed! Keep an eye on this space ^_~

~ Wizardry Dragon

Warder · Post by **Warder** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:15 am

Just because someone offers a reward for doing a good deed does not make that deed non-virtuous. Intent is what matters - if you only care about the reward, then you're not virtuous. If you would've done the good deed regardless, that'd be virtuous. Turning down the reward may be a bonus virtuous thing to do, though.