Hidden conversation in SI

Post by **artaxerxes** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 9:54 am

Hi,

I am currently in the process of translation SI, and in particular the conversation with Brendann (0496.uc @ L2C1F), the Wolf commander.

Does anyone remember him saying the following, when asked about stockings:

"The stockings that thou didst take from Shmed were made in the city of Fawn".

For some reason I cannot remember finding stockings on Shmed's body.

Artaxerxes

Paulon · Post by **Paulon** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 2:22 pm

I never found any on him either. My best guess is that it's a part of the cut plot elements. Probably given Shmed's involvement you got to do some detective work to find out about Selena...

Post by **artaxerxes** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 2:38 pm

and wait until you read Julia's usecode... Boy, it's full of old plot elements!

Artaxerxes

ToasterThief5 · Post by **ToasterThief5** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 6:46 pm

Hell, the usecode of the game post-banes is great. The game would've been a lot more interesting if they'd gone with the three-ruler idea.

Achile Dragon · Post by **Achile Dragon** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 3:07 pm

Can we restore these code?

Achile Dragon · Post by **Achile Dragon** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 3:08 pm

How we can access to these conversation

Achile

SB-X · Post by **SB-X** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 3:38 pm

You can decode the usecode file with the tools Artaxerxes is using. He would be the best person to restore the old plot since he already has so much experience working with it.

Achile Dragon · Post by **Achile Dragon** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 3:52 pm

what tool he use

Achile

Grimlock Dragon · Post by **Grimlock Dragon** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 8:25 pm

Also, if anyone is interested, I thought it might be useful to repost the information I found about the cut plot several months ago....

From Andy

After doing some research, and contacting some very reliable sources, I have finally, come to some understanding of what the original plot of Serpent Isle was like. It wasn’t that much different from what has been guessed. Although, yes, the game would have been longer. That being said, I was intrigued about what I did find. Unfortunately, I have yet to find anyone with a full copy of the plot.

Firstly, there was of course Claw Isle….

There are two conflicting accounts, which may reflect how the story evolved into the one in the Silver Seed. One source stated, “There was supposed to be a Kilrathi (from Wing Commander) stranded there (Claw Isle). Since he was so advanced he was considered a god to any primitive people there. I'm not sure if there was any technology or advanced weapons to be found there.”

Another source stated, “The cat statues represented an almost extinct tribe of cat-like beings, and I believe the chief, Yearl, was in the game.” (Yearl’s art was used as the cat-creature in the Silver Seed.) “He was going to be an ally of the Avatar for a brief time, and he was supposed to be a tragic character who saw that the end of his people was near. We had no plan for the Avatar to be able to save his people, we wanted to darken the mood a bit and add some dramatic conversations with the last survivor about the dying race.”

There weren’t really any plans for the Naga, in spite of the “Naga Temple” that could be found as a very blank, gray, step-like building with bars in the game. “The Naga were supposed to represent wild/barbaric offspring of the Ophidians. The Ophidians were such an advanced and wise culture, and the Naga were either servants or creations of the proud race. The Naga eventually turned on their masters and may have aided in the destruction of the Ophidian culture. Now Naga exist in barbaric tribes scattered throughout the world.”

There were no special plans for the Ratmen either. (Granted there was a rumor floating around of a Ratman portrait that wasn’t included in the game.) One source stated, “I don’t even remember the ratmen, I don’t think there was any significant fiction surrounding them.”

As far as city design, Moonshade (and Fawn) was supposed to have 2 layers….

“Moonshade was a two layered city till just before we shipped the game. We had to take out the second level because the technology could not handle the high object count, and this makes me very sad. It had cool overhead walkways, elevated decks and every building had multiple floors.” However, “there would have been no changes to the plot at all” from this.

Of course the major part of the cut plot came from shortening the story of the 3 Banes….

“The major plot element involved the Banes ruling the three towns, each Bane twisting each town into their own likeness.” “…. causing changes in all of the characters. However, the changes were mostly in conversations.” “It really would have been cool, but we were such a green team we had no clue how much work we were getting ourselves into when we started the project. Most of the townspeople were supposed to be left alive, but twisted or transformed to something inhuman and appropriately psychotic. It was supposed to explore what each Bane represented, taken to an extreme. Cutting this saved about 1/3 of our development time, so this was a huge cut. No one was happy about it, but after months and months of 70-hour weeks, we all realized that it was necessary.” “If I remember right, you were supposed to go to each town and defeat each Bane in their own territory. I don’t remember the details though.”

This checks out with the little bit found in the usecode as one of the characters stated that he saw his reflection in a puddle of water as a wolf. I believe it was one of the Monitor residents.

Also, originally, if it was forseen that the team was going to run out of time…. “we had a "fallback" scheme where if we ran out of time, we would ship the first half of the game - up to Batlin's death, basically. The second half could then have come out as an expansion pack of sorts. Unfortunately, when we ran out of time, management had other ideas. The first things that were cut were areas that didn't have a lot to do with the main plot. (The deserted cat island, for instance.) We had already created the art and built those areas, but didn't have the resources to
complete the scriptcoding (which turned out to be much more time-consuming than anticipated). Then came the idea of "killing everyone off" after the Banes were released. In the original plot, you could revisit Monitor, Fawn and Moonshade and see the effects of the Banes there. Cutting these areas saved us the work of scriptcoding.” “I didn't want to do it (kill everyone off) as I didn't think it would save that much time. (The post-Banes cities didn't require much scriptcode, which was our critical area; the conversations, on the other hand, had already mostly been written.)"
It has also been noted on the Exult board that the Silver Seed characters were not true NPC’s, but “Monsters” as were some of the characters in the original game. “It was just a way to add characters after we'd used up all of the "character slots" in the game system. Technically, the main difference I recall is that "monsters" don't have schedules (though the same result could have been created in scriptcode).”

From Neutronium Dragon

I would hazard the guess that both cat isle plot ideas are right - as I recall, the Kilrathi were getting obliterated at around that time in the Wing Commander series.

Given the book that you find on the subject in the game, and the above comments, the most likely scenario is that the survivor of the crash (thought a god) created the cat-being race, and subsequently (presumably thanks to the imbalance, etc) they get wiped out. (Similar to the afflictions that the gargoyles, emps, etc, are suffering at the same time?)

Alternately, they may have been actual Kilrathi descendants, and thus the 'end of the race' would be more tied in to the WC games at the time.

From Andy

As far as the conversations that can be read after you delete the "kill" eggs. One source had this to say....

"And I wouldn't guarantee that those "revealed" conversations are 100%
right - since we knew they wouldn't be used in the game, we never did any of the extensive "final polishing" that we did on the other conversations in the game. (So they're pretty rough and ready, more like first drafts.)"

But it couldn't hurt to see what further investigations may reveal in the game conversations.

From Andy

Here are some elements that are open to conjecture. My sources did NOT say these things, but they may have been implied by the cut plot...

1. As far as Yearl being in the Silver Seed maze. It just seems to make more and more sence that a Ratman was intended to be at the maze's center instead of Yearl (the cat creature), because:

a. He asks for cheese.
b. Yearl is trapped at the center, "like a rat in a maze."
c. Shortly after the time of the game shipping, there was a rumor about an unused ratman portrait that never made it into the game.

I believe the developers wanted to put a Kilrathi link in, but the Claw Isle plot didn't get finished, so they shoved the cat creature in the maze, thus replacing the Ratman with Yearl, since they weren't able to do the Claw Isle plot.

2. Cantra was supposed to be cured,.... and possibly join your party to return to her mother in Monitor. This could have proved interesting with Dupre the Bane in charge there.

3. Also, I believe Frelli was supposed to join your party, and visit his father in Fawn. This also could be interesting if Mad Iolo were in charge. I believe Frelli's paper doll art is in the files somewhere. Am I wrong?

4. Let's also not forget that Gwenno would probably want to join your party to try to bring Mad Iolo back. It would be an interesting plot twist to have Gwenno want to save Iolo, when Iolo came to save her in the first place. After Iolo is restored, Lady Yelinda could give Gwenno a hit from the Comb of Beauty. The trip back to Britannia could possibly make the effect on Gwenno permanent. That could be why she appears so young in Ultima 9.... (yes, I know that's stretching it).

There was a little more speculation in the original thread here if you want to look.

http://exult.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9814#p9814

ToasterThief5 · Post by **ToasterThief5** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 10:01 pm

Also, one bit of dialogue most people miss is that if you complete Silver Seed AFTER the banes go on a rampage, Karnax explains how planting the tree in the past will help the Serpent Isle's population to be ressurected.

It didn't elaborate, so this was probably just a thoughtful addition by the scriptwriter to make the endgame a little more positive.

Grimlock Dragon · Post by **Grimlock Dragon** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 7:26 pm

Can anyone get me the email address of Lisa Smith? She's one of the people that worked on the plot of Serpent Isle. I've tried to find it, but you try looking for an email address for someone with the last name of Smith :0) Thanks!

Clock Nova · Post by **Clock Nova** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 9:41 pm

My God. We've got to get this plot restored! This is MUCH better!

Maybe we could even get those 2-level towns restored. Sounds like a great new project.

Post by **Colourless** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 1:29 am

Exult can support many times the amount of objects the original could. A 2 level Moonshade would very much be possible. The problem is, it is unlikely to be much like what was originally intended. We really do not know what Moonshade originally looked like, and I imagine that the buildings were somewhat changed to work with the removed second level, so just adding an extra level wouldn't really work.

Longgone · Post by **Longgone** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 8:15 am

Here's some of the weird stuff I've just seen:

-In my first travel to Fawn after the holocaust, I went straight to Delphina's house and she was still
alive. I talked to her and there was her usual conversation options along with a new thread called
Iolo the Mad, but choosing it made it disappear.
Also... Ruggs says that Iolo the Mad killed every citizen in a disgusting manner while Yelinda says
it was a plague that made her citizen fall one by one...

-When I spoke to Ernesto after the holocaust, he says that Shamino's the Magelord. He also states
that he took off the Strictures, and that it's so funny!

-Isnt it strange that Skullcrusher's dungeon reachable by the ruins North-East of Monitor is filled
with leather stuff and low-level creatures? Maybe you were supposed to access this dungeon
at the beginning of your quest?

-Also at Skullcrusher... the frustating unopenable eastern set of doors leads to a set of stairs teleporting you in the middle of the sea... but near the other dungeons...

-Huh... I casted Vibrate on Morghrim and a "madman" appeared... what's that?

Using the teleport cheat I found...

-A sealed dungeon with gazers, magic axe and potions in the mountains of the Isle of Claw.
There's some stairs leading to a forgotten observatory in the North in there, too.

-Some Serpent Ruins in the Isle of Claws. And an Isle east of Furnace. And a teleporter on the
unaccessible shores south of Furnace. Unreachable teleports, chest, key and poison field in the
middle of the Mountains of Freedom.

This game's filled with so many secrets! I can only hope a team will try to restore what they
can to finish the game better. And change Harna's conversation options after the city's destroyed...

I'd love to hear all of the hidden stuff in Serpent Isle! Can you guys tell us more of the hidden
usecodes and conversations?

PS:
If someone wants to make an add-on or MOD for Ultima BG they could take the portraits and
misc art from the Super Nintendo version. I recall many new portraits in there similar to those
in the original.

EXULT RULES

Achile Dragon · Post by **Achile Dragon** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 9:42 am

BTW ,You can be etheral that much fast to pass through any object.

I'm sure that if we set all the usecode at on.

Achile

Grimlock Dragon · Post by **Grimlock Dragon** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 6:06 pm

A note from one of the original SI developers that I just received about doing modifications to add the cut plot...

Much of the "cut" dialogue existed at one point - that is, it had been written in first draft, but never went through the full editing and
polishing pass that the rest of the game did. However, I imagine that was
lost when Origin lost the archive of the game. So it would need to be
recreated.

Also: It would be difficult to do a good job of recreating the dialogue
without having a design document to refer to. Which means that, if you
haven't already created replacement design documents for the "missing" game periods, you should do that first. And, of course, restoring the original endgame would mean lots of new usecode, new schedules for the NPCs, etc.

Also, in this engine, I personally find it very difficult to write dialogue
without writing the usecode for the conversation as well. (Others that worked on SI may have different opinions.) There's a bit of an art to deciding how many keywords to leave on screen, how to layer the conversation, etc. Also, there has to be some agreement as to what flags are available (global flags), which gets back to the design document.

So, there you have it folks. Some word on the difficulty of the task at hand. Not insurmountable though (After all look at what it took to make Exult).

Wizardry Dragon · Post by **Wizardry Dragon** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 4:31 am

It wouldn't be too difficult from my experience. Just very VERY long

The conversation usecode is immesnely easier now (IMHO) thanks to UCC, which is definetly a step above pure usecode *shudder* As the the two level Moonshade, it would be sticking to the 'feel' of Moonshade that would be difficult. It isn't to hard with Exult Studio to just drop things in now.

Wizardry Dragon,
Lead Developedr
U7Gridion
http://u7giridion.sf.net

Grimlock Dragon · Post by **Grimlock Dragon** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 4:38 pm

Looks like a nice project Wizardry Dragon. I was hoping for someone to add the missing elements of SI. I hope the information that I have provided has been somewhat helpful. How far along is Giridion, and do you think you have enough people helping you? So this is another project powered by Exult.

Post by **drcode** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 9:56 am

Let us know if you need changes in Exult or ExultStudio to support this. Some things can be fairly easy, such as increasing the number of global flags (currently limited to 1024).

Post by **artaxerxes** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 5:14 am

New interesting hidden conversation with Luther of Monitor.

It seems at some point Caladin dies and he thus says:
L0EDE: "Now that I am Lord of the Bears, Monitor is at last safe from invasion."

Which suggest that when the Banes were released, Caladin did not survive it and Luther did.

Artaxerxes

Achile Dragon · Post by **Achile Dragon** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 8:06 am

Well why he dies then.

Achile

Dangus · Post by **Dangus** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 4:44 am

Do you guys think it might be a good idea to organize a team that will work on this mod specifically? Someone could head the team and assign dialog jobs to various members of the team, who would then have to come up with details and outlines for the updated NPC dialogs. That would all get pooled together, reviewed by an appointed board, and implemented by those with the talents to do so. This would free up the coders to work on implementing the actual code instead of spending all their time thinking up dialog and making it all consistent with itself and with the other dialog.

Withstand the Fury · Post by **Withstand the Fury** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 7:59 am

If any team emerges to begin adapting the old plot to Exult, I'd be most interested in keeping in touch with them. My team is adapting Serpent Isle, the Silver Seed, and one expansion of our own, for Neverwinter Nights, and I'd really like a chance to use the old plot. Usecode cracking, here I come!

WtF Dragon

withstand · Post by **withstand** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 8:27 am

Interesting...if anyone starts up an Exult version of the expanded plot, let me know! I'd be very interested to swap information with them. As it stands, my team and I have just begun our Neverwinter Nights Mod that deals with the same thing: Serpent Isle (with as many original plot points as I can salvage from the 'Net and the usecode) and the Silver Seed. Also an expansion we're writing on our own.

Noviere · Post by **Noviere** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 10:18 am

WtF Dragon: I was hoping to check out your Serpent Isle remake, si I looked up your profile. The website had info about an Ultima spinoff project, but nothing about SI specifically. Is the webpage just about your expansion?

withstand · Post by **withstand** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 11:41 am

Actually, there's an interesting story behind that. For the longest time, I was flying solo on the project, not unlike Mike Morrato and his remake/expansion of U7. I was going to do a Serpent Isle remake, tentatively titled Imbalance.

But then I came up with this insane idea about the Ophidians and the old continents of Sosaria. Fuelled by a copy of the pre-alpha map of UO and some speculation that the map might once have been considered for use for Ultima IX, I came up with Lost Sosaria, and grew a story out of that.

Then I put together a team of people, and with 4 mappers in NWN, a guy can get a lot done! So I decided to dust off my Imbalance idea. Then I saw the hidden plot points, and some of the usecode fragments, and I knew I had to do it. I rearranged my team a bit and now we're doing Imbalance, with the Silver Seed and Lost Sosaria as add-ons.

However, the website updates are a bit behind the times. I have to sit down later this week and hammer out the Imbalance and Silver Seed pages.

Sergorn · Post by **Sergorn** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 11:55 am

Erm...

Shouldn't your "Ophidia" rather be the Land of the Dark Unknown ? The Land of Danger and Despair *is* the Serpent Isle...

-Sergorn

Noviere · Post by **Noviere** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:05 pm

Ah, I see. Well, I'm totally looking forward to it. There are so many great Ultima remakes in the works. I've always hoped a SI one would surface(it being my favorite in the series).

I started making one for NWN a while ago, but there was a lot of custom content that I would've needed, and I have no experience with making such things. I made all of the NPCs, made Moonshade(as accurate as was possible with the current tilesets), but gave up.

withstand · Post by **withstand** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:10 pm

Noviere, what all did you get done. If nothing else, I might be able to use the NPC's you made...I'm not anywhere near that stage yet (I'm only just starting here) but it might be a boost.

As for custom content, well, I pulled a lot off of Mike Morrato's U7 Remixed project, and I'll be adding a bit that I've yanked off of NWVault.

Sergorn, with regards to your observation...I think you spotted a typo. There's three continents, and I guess I got them confused. What has become Ophidia was indeed the Lands of the Dark Unknown (if you type that too fast, you sometimes get Darn Unknown, I find...). I'll be overhauling that whole webpage sometime in the near future, if all goes well.

If anyone wants to help out, my email is posted, so drop me a line!

Post by **artaxerxes** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:10 pm

By the way Sergorn, there is an update for SI-french:

It is now possible to d/l the daily patch on the following site:
http://si-french.sf.net/patch

The patch is updated every day and contains the latest changes. This way, there is no need to wait until a new release comes out to get the latest changes or this annoying plot stopper in a conversation.
We still plan to release official version, but seeing how many of si-patch-1.011 got downloaded (zero), I don't know how often they'll come out.

We also really need lots of tester and we need them to report bugs. The bug reporting page is:
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_i ... tid=460260

thx
Artaxerxes

Post by **wjp** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:38 pm

SF download statistics are broken. I wouldn't trust them at all

Sergorn · Post by **Sergorn** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:54 pm

"Sergorn, with regards to your observation...I think you spotted a typo. There's three continents, "

Oh, does that mean the game will have the Serpent Isle in addition to the other two continents ? (I'm talking about "Lost Sosaria", not "Imbalance")

"By the way Sergorn, there is an update for SI-french:"

I know there is, but to be honest I'm deep into translating Lazarus right now, so I really don't have much time to go through SI and look at your translation (also I really must point out that the patch is a real pain in the ass to install :/)

-Sergorn

withstand · Post by **withstand** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:24 pm

What my plan is, in the broadest of broad strokes right now, is this:

You start out on the Serpent Isle plot path. The Silver Seed plot will be introduced and activated as normal, and played out as normal. Lost Sosaria will be activated when/if you visit Claw (I'm probably going to adapt the plot documents from this Forum, plus a few shots in the dark on my part) and find...something. Maybe I'll have Yearl allude to it.

That's uncertain.

But you'll find a passage to the Lost Sosarian continents, and thus be able to complete a rather complex plot there. I'm still massaging the details on that one, but I think it has something to do with a nitpick on Hacki's page that asks where the Guardian was in all this madness on SI, beyond taking credit for it at the end. This will expand his role, presenting SI as his way of distracting the Avatar from where he truly plans to enter Britannia. Or something like that.

I'm always open to plot suggestions. In fact, I will probably post the link to my synopsis here as soon as I post the pages, and y'all can nitpick (constructively, please) and help me shape this thing.

Sergorn · Post by **Sergorn** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:42 pm

Oh... I see... So it's gonna be some sort of side-story/add-in to the Serpent Isle where you play the Avatar like Silver Seed ? :/

I must say I thought the idea of playing Sentri (and if I understand correctly other companions from Ultima VII) in some sort of parallal story to Serpent Isle to be a lot more interesting.

Honestly, I really don't think trying to expend on the plot of Serpent Isle is a good idea because it doesn't need ot be expended (except maybe trying to put the original plan for the Banes, even though I'm quite fond of the "holocaust"). The way you put, it sounds an awful lot like the "Return to Britannia" remake which I'm... very skeptical about to say the least.

Of course you can do whatever you like; but your original idea sounded more interesting that what you seem to intend to do now. (Eck if I you asked me; I'd say drop the whole "Imbalance" thing; and just do "Lost Sosaria" like you intended to in the first place - there are more than enough remakes going on; fully fan-made adventures are welcome changes).

-Sergorn

withstand · Post by **withstand** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 2:25 pm

I'm in a love/hate relationship with Imbalance...part of me wants to do it with just the banes, and part of me wants to ignore it entirely. Your suggestion interests me, about having LS as a standalone, because that was the original plan. I suppose I could resurrect it - I still have the old HTML files kicking around on a backup CD somewhere in my room.

I'll talk it over with the team in a couple weeks when we all get back together. We'll decide whether to chase two plotlines or just one.

Dangus · Post by **Dangus** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 7:03 pm

So is there anyone here who's not too busy who has skill organizing projects that can help get the ball rolling?

I mean, I've got experience organizing teams, I played a major role in the first couple of beta releases of Day of Defeat and half the alpha releases as well, but I wouldn't say I'm the most reliable choice for the job despite my experience. I have a tendency to space things off.

As a long time DM though, writing plot is not foreign to me, so I think I can add a lot, but we need to figure out where to start first methinks.

withstand · Post by **withstand** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 9:52 pm

I could start the ball rolling, I suppose - post to the Forums (Wayward, here, Dino's, Hacki's if he has) and try throw together a team. That way, I could work solely on Lost Sosaria, and still rest easy, knowing that the "original plot" of Serpent Isle would see the light of day.

And for the next couple years, provided I don't flunk out of University, I have between 500MB and 1GB of free web space, so I could host some pages and possibly even binary snapshots/builds of the game.

I wouldn't be able to work on it all that much, although that might be cool. Work in NWN for Lost Sosaria, a bit on Exult Studio.

If someone has time to devote to JUST THIS, please pre-empt me and take over. If nobody steps up in a week, I'll start asking around and see if a team can be thrown together.

Post by **artaxerxes** » Thu Jun 26, 2003 3:58 am

Great to have feedback on the patch system! You're the first one to do it.
I guess I'll have to think of something better then.

As a side point, I was mentioning this update not for you to d/l and test it, but to post it on your news about ultima web site. But, of course, you do what you want!

Artaxerxes

withstand · Post by **withstand** » Thu Jun 26, 2003 6:10 am

As to where to start - start at the beginning. Look first at the existing Serpent Isle and determine what parts of it you can keep relatively unchanged, or almost unchanged. The opening sequence, the towns pre-Banes, and much of the Ophidian stuff can all be kept as-is. The real changes only come after the banes are freed.

Perhas you could add another side-quest concerning Shamino to allow people to still have a reason to walk into White Dragon...say...calming the angry spirit of the Lord of White Dragon, who would likely be pissed as hell at Shamino. And that could start with calming the spirit of Beatrix.

Sergorn · Post by **Sergorn** » Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:10 am

"Great to have feedback on the patch system! You're the first one to do it.
I guess I'll have to think of something better then."

Yeah... having to do all this stuff really sucks ^^. You know even a simple .bat file where you'd just have to type the directory of Serpent Isle would be nice

"As a side point, I was mentioning this update not for you to d/l and test it, but to post it on your news about ultima web site. "

D'oh ! Oh sure I'll do that

-Sergorn

Post by **drcode** » Thu Jun 26, 2003 1:33 pm

While I don't have a whole lot of time, I'll be happy (well, willing at least:-)) to make any fixes or enhancements to the tools. Keep in mind that unlike commercial games, we can modify the engine itself.

Dangus · Post by **Dangus** » Thu Jun 26, 2003 6:40 pm

I'm currently playing through SI. I'll tell ya what. As soon as I get a bit further(a couple days), I'll look over the lists of those recently discovered plot documents, and then I'll draw up and outline of what I think we need to do. That'll at least be a starting point.

I just think it would be nice to not have the whole first part of the game be basically pointless because everyone dies....

Hacki · Post by **Hacki** » Sat Jun 28, 2003 12:26 am

"I just think it would be nice to not have the whole first part of the game be basically pointless because everyone dies...."

Personally, it didn't feel wrong to me. It was one of the most thrilling moments in Ultima when I returned to Moonshade and everyone was dead. A truly dramatic turn of the plot!

However, the original ideas sound great, too. A branch in the plot would be nice

Sergorn · Post by **Sergorn** » Sat Jun 28, 2003 1:47 am

I agree with Hacki here...

The whole holocaust in SI, was actually a really terrific and shocking moment; and not to mention totally unexpected. Coming back from the Northen Wastes; and finding that most of the Isle's population has been wiped out... that was just a terrific moment.

I've always been very fond of this stuff personnally; (eck the whole history of the land post-SI in my fanfic is totally built on it) my only complain is that it was poorly handled in some parts; notably in the main land with people (like Harrna and Wilfred) not reacting to the events. Too bad.

The original idea is pretty great too; though it doesn't have the shock value of everybody being dead - I dunno I guess the morale of all this is that sometimes good things can come out of rushed things

-Sergorn

Noviere · Post by **Noviere** » Sat Jun 28, 2003 3:43 am

I enjoyed the effect of everyone dying as well. Perhaps the two plots could be melded together.

The Banes possess the companions, and attack their respective cities. The initial attack results in many deaths(ie: ones that further the plot, such as Rocco's death and it's effect on Petra, as well as Filbercio's and Torrissio's claiming the title of Magelord).

When the Avatar arrives at each city, he/she must drive the Banes away with the help of some notable NPCs in order to save the citizens. Once defeated in this way, the banes flee to the Castle of the White Dragon, where the Avatar has the final showdown with them.

The only question I would have is this... Do the cities return to "normal"(not ressurections, but more along the lines of the banes' influence, such as the citizens of Monitor returning to human form) after the banes are chased away, or after they are finally defeated?

Dino (can't log in) · Post by **Dino (can't log in)** » Sat Jun 28, 2003 4:00 am

The mass death caused by the release of the Banes was cool, but my experience with it was not particularly pleasant. I had a hard time looking for reagents then... good thing I had the Silver Seed or I would not have been able to cast required spells without the wonderful Ring of Reagents.

Dangus · Post by **Dangus** » Sat Jun 28, 2003 6:11 am

I do appreciate the shock value of the towns being killed off, but would it not be nice to have the original plot as an option, and even in it, as stated by Noviere, the death toll is high, but the towns have some hope of revival. You don't want to take the drama of upheaval out of the game, nor do you want to have it turn into a cheesy Star-Trek-type plot where everything works out in the end via over-simplistic solutions. People definitely need to die, though my best idea on that is a few named NPCs and a LOT of filler NPCs.

Speaking of which.... Filler NPCs would be a great mod for this game. Implement them much the same way as gaurds are(not permanent characters, basically unlimited numbers of them). When we expand Moonshade, would it not be a cool thing to add strolling pedestrians for more background? They would not need to have much/any dialog, and any response they give to the character would be in the form of on screen text above their heads rather than a full conversation. It sounds like especially with Exult this would be very easy to do. Feedback on this would be cool though. It'd certainly allow massive death tolls from the banes without totally wiping out all the characters you've developed feelings for(some good, some bad!).

Dino (can't log in) · Post by **Dino (can't log in)** » Sat Jun 28, 2003 6:18 am

I don't agree with having "filler NPCs". It just makes a fake atmosphere, like the people in U9 telling you what a nice day it is while you want to kill the developers for their lack of world population.

Dangus · Post by **Dangus** » Sat Jun 28, 2003 6:34 am

I agree to a point. I mean, you don't want the overly generic cities of Daggerfall, that, while huge, were the loneliest places ever visited by gamers(Scintilus Mage Academy aside...) since everyone just had nothing to say.

Still, gaurds are generic and they work. It'd have to be done right, and not to excess, but I believe it could be a good thing.

Withstand (not logged in) · Sat Jun 28, 2003 8:01 pm

Then too...somewhere I read (or maybe I was crazy) that when you planted the Silver Seed, it had a resotorative effect on the land - did it stop the Imbalance? Anyhow...I thought I read somewhere that it undid a lot of the bane-induced damage.

Maybe that could be the plot branch - every second time I play Serpent Isle, I don't bother passing Silver Seed (I just go there for the keyring and that's it). Thus...if you don't do the Silver Seed quests, you have the regular land, with the holocaust. But if you pass the Silver Seed...uhm..."something" happens and you have to deal with each Bane in the towns. Maybe the partial restoration of Balance coming from the Seed being planted tames their murderous rages and just makes them occupy and bend the towns to their will.

And, occasionally, kill off NPCs to keep in some of the good plot aspects, like Petra's sorrow over Rocco's death.

If this appeals to anyone, I can maybe flesh it out more when I've
(a) had more sleep
(b) had less beer

Cheers,
WtF Dragon