BG issue

[AJ]

Since this is probably one of the most active U7 fan sites around, I thought I'd post these questions here. I'm playing BG again (for the millionth time - never get tired of it!), and I just noticed something I've never noticed before in the game. In Castle Stonegate (the ruins in the middle of the swamp NE of Britain) as we all know, there are a bunch of crucifixes (which the game for some reason identifies as "weeds" when you click on them). What I hadn't noticed before was that in one spot there are three crucifxes, and next to them are a spear, cloak, and a cup full of blood. This looks like to me a reference to the crucifiction of Jesus. He was crucified between two thieves (three crosses in all), soldiers used a spear to pierce him and gambled for his cloak, and supposedly his blood was collected in a cup - the holy grail (all these events except the grail are recorded in the gospels, the grail is a legend). Do you think I am interpeting this right, or is it just coincidence? If not, has anyone ever noticed this also? I've never seen it mentioned anywhere else. I think this is a bit strange, it not perhaps a little in poor taste. What are you guys' thoughts?

[Stephan]

Can't see why it'd be in poor taste... it'd be like saying that the expression "Achilles' Heel" is in poor taste. Dunno. Either way, I just think it's coincidence.

[Khumash-Gor]

"Three coincidences make a conspiracy."

[SB-X]

*Heh heh* You should play "Quake 3: Arena" sometime...

I don't find this in poor taste, because I don't think it is meant to be insulting. Whoever created the area may have thought of the reference, since Ultima7 is full of references, and then added it to an already existing crucification site. The end result is just meant to be a gory scene, to add "environment" to the area.

[Khumash-Gor]

I'm not sure who you're refering to when you say that they should play Q3? But I have, and it just plain sucked Carmack couldn't crap out a good game even if he tried. He is just about as sad as J. Romero.

Had to add my two cents I don't like Quake, and I like the API they run on even less.

[toad`sMoke]

AJ, i just revisited the site you talk about. yeah, that's nuts. i've never made that connection, but i'd say it's a reference.

[Soule]

I think that's a very creative observation! It makes absolute sense..

[SB-X]

I'm not sure who you're refering to when you say that they should play Q3? But I have, and it just plain sucked

Oh, I meant AJ.

[AJ]

I guess the reason I thought it might be a little in poor taste is because of the way religion is cast in such a bad light in the rest of the game through the Fellowship, and I don't just mean Christianity. Although the Fellowship is never refered to as a religion, it is obviously a conglomeration of aspects of several different types of religious thought (I mean, if nothing else, every Felloship Hall looks just like a church!). In various parts of the game I've seen elements of everything from Catholicism to Transcendentalism to New Age. And while the true evil may be the Guardian, the Fellowship is certainly portrayed as evil enough itself through the self-righteousness and hypocrisy of its members. When I first made the connection with this scene in the swamp, my first thought was: Why is this here? I couldn't see the reason why some Origin developer decided to put it there, so I guess I connected it with my above thoughts about the Fellowship.

[Gileathane Dragon]

Whats the text from the ingame history book about Stonegate again ?
After the shadowlords, a lord moved in .. time passed a band of trolls took it over .. can't remember. I'll post when I get to my exult running box.

[SB-X]

I remember a family of Cyclops with a human kid living there.
Ahh, fun times...

[AJ]

"THE HISTORY OF STONEGATE
by Shazle

The story of Stonegate Castle is, indeed, an interesting one. At one time the keep was occupied by the Shadowlords, during Lord British's disappearance and Blackthorn's evil rule. However, once the Avatar returned our noble monarch to his throne, eliminating the Shadowlords from Britannia, a family of cyclops made the castle their home. Not more than three decades from then the walls were abandoned.

This lasted but for a short time, however, for a small colony of wingless gargoyles found refuge within the confines of the keep. Three years later they were driven out by Lord Vemelon of Jhelom, who chose to retain the castle for his own purposes. For several generations ownership was passed down the Vemelon line until one day the very mountains nearby opened up, and the swamps engulfed the castle. Now, rumors purport that a colony of trolls have taken up residence amongst the ruins, along with an ancient wizard, but no one has ever confirmed their existence."

Courtesy of Underworld Dragon's web site.

[Khumash-Gor]

Quote:

And while the true evil may be the Guardian, the Fellowship is
certainly portrayed as evil enough itself through the
self-righteousness and hypocrisy of its members.


Not to burst anybody's bubble of a perfect universe... But all groups/gatherings/meetings/governments/religions are self-righteous and hypocrisy is their main Virtue. Especially the groups that are aimed at controlling what you think, and what you say, and then tell you how things should be done. The Avatar saw through the hypocrisy of the Fellowship and destroyed it. I wish there was an Avatar in real life sometimes

[Walker Dragon]

Speaking of references, I remember it being pointed out waaaaay back on the Ultima Dragons newsgroup that it was interesting that the Generators were a cube, a sphere, and a tetrahedron - that being the logo of Electronic Arts at the time, who had just bought up Origin.

And who could forget the software pirate shack and the Kilrathi ship...

Another thing which was not so much of a reference, but some sort of plagiarism maybe was the Serpent Gates system in Serpent Isle - very similar to the waygates in Robert Jordan's wheel of time, no?

[Darke]

>Another thing which was not so much of a reference, but some sort of
>plagiarism maybe was the Serpent Gates system in Serpent Isle - very
>similar to the waygates in Robert Jordan's wheel of time, no?

And to many, many other sci-fi/fantasy books much older then I am. *grin*
Unfortunately, there's no real 'new' concepts under the sun in such a well
written area, just how they're used. And saying that something that
common being copied is plagarism is akin to saying, "Hey look! That guy
stole our 'save the world' plot!" *grin*

[SHazle]

The crosses and items were placed there by me. I created the Stonegate area for Ultima 7, as well as most of the Wilderness areas.
There were 4 major map editors: Shazle - Exteriors, Brian m.-Interiors, Bruce A.- Dungeons, and John W. - Special and Endgame.
I originally had a plaque atop the center cross but was asked to remove it by LB.
I was not trying to insult anyone, just a minor dig at organized religions, like most of the game.

-Shazle

[richcon]

AJ:

Ultima VII does not paint religion in a bad light. In fact, you are playing a sort of religious savior yourself, and one of the eight Virtues is Spirituality. The philosophy of Virtue that the Avatar must follow evokes Christianity and other world religions far more than the Fellowship does.

I don't honestly see any connections with Christianity in any of the Fellowship's portrayal. Their philosophy, available at length if you ask any Fellowship member about it, doesn't evoke any serious Christian teaching that I know of.

To me, the Fellowship is an obvious jab at Scientology. The Fellowship makes you take a personality test when you join, and the personality test results with you needing their help, no matter what you answer. And the Fellowship leadership insists their faith is more of a lifestyle of cooperation that is perfectly compatible with all older religions, just as Scientology does. The Fellowship's political structure seems to evoke the multiple levels of Scientology membership. (And Scientologists do meet in churches, like many other religions.) There are other references in there as well.

If there is a Crucifixion reference there, I think that it's meant in a respectful manner.

Rich

PS: Disclaimer: This post doesn't represent my views on Scientology, only the connections that make it look like the creators of Ultima VII made a jab at it.

[richcon]

Ah, beat to the chase by the guy who actually designed it! (And I'm stoked that he's here commenting on this forum! Welcome!)

Subtle digs at organized religion aside, I still don't think that any of this game insults the concept of religion and Christianity itself, so I don't think AJ has much to feel insulted about.